Graham Phantom vs Triplaner

where we differ is in the superb improvements in sound that one can achieve with a better cartridge in a 'decent' arm?

Rather than casting the issue in terms about how much of a great cartridge's potential can be realized on a less than great arm, I think of it as an approach to the question about where do you put money on a limited budget, when you can purchase a great tonearm or a great cartridge but not both.

I would say at minimum the 'decent arm' needs to support accurate adjustment of the cartridge/cantilever/stylus in all three dimensions. A goodly chunk of the investment in an arm is learning how to use it.

Downunder...I've read it!
As I intimated, he isn't about to compare it, in print, to the Phantom made by his mate Bob Graham!?
Also in the latest Absolute Sound, Jon Valin goes one better on Fremer by making the Raven AC/3 the new REFERENCE! above the Walker...even with the Phantom arm.....and I'm here to tell you that the Copperhead CREAMS the Phantom!!!

Halcro,I wonder if you are involved in the industry,or a hobbyist?Personally I have no issue with either,but I get the impression,from your confident dismissal of the Phantom,Triplanar,and apparrent knocking of the Schroder,that you "just might have a hidden agenda"!
If so,good for you,as I have absolutely no problem with coaxing out some old fashion heated debates,on interesting "hobby" topics.Yet,I think there is a flaw in some of your comments(but DO keep them coming).-:)
Firstly,who (with real hobby experience)cares what Fremer,or Valin likes?They have their own,personal,tastes.Good for them!I have been to numerous homes,of reviewers,in the NY area,where the consenses of the hobbyists present was NOT complimentary of those set-ups.Meaning nothing,other than the "guy" owning the set-up liked "his" own way of doing things.Just fine by me,but I will choose what I like,and no amount of good press does anything for me,other than to cause me to give myself some exposure to a particular product.Recently an "industry" person gave me a very negative description of M.F. set-up's sound!First hand exposure by this guy,but I still dismissed it as his(the industry dude's)taste.We all like what we like.
I definitely am NOT trying to be demeaning,just posing a counter arguement to some of your thoughts.All in good spirits.I hope!
Other than knowing someone who likes something,have you actually compared the Triplanar,Phantom,not to mention Schroder,to the new to the hobby,but fascinating, Continuum Copperhead?I don't include the Cobra,because at 16,000 bucks it will not be a commonly used arm.No matter how good it "might be"!
BTW,my friend was recently at a trade show,and ran into Fremer(who was very nice,according to my pal).My friend,who is very well off financially,asked M.F. what arm he would recommend he buy(my friend has a ton of experience,but wanted to get some feedback).The response was to get a Phantom!!This is not heresay,but a factual account given to me by my pal.
Yet,to me,and in complete honesty,it still amounts to little.Who knows why the Phantom was recommended?I now know it is a great product,as I have it installed.I had a Triplanar,which I liked alot,but have a hunch(based on my way of thinking,ONLY)the Phantom "might" allow a cartridge to give a tad more!A superb "real world" design!NOT 16,000 US dollars!
As to the Copperhead,which I admit to being fascinated with(mostly from NOT knowing it's sound)based on the design brief.Fremer "did" have a negative comment,from my memory of the review.He mentioned something about the arm's internal wiring to "not" be so well addressed.I think he alluded to the possibility of internal "tube resonances".He did not think it was audible,but I got the impression it was still a design in progress.That comment would bother me,if I were lokking to get one. I admit to disagreeing "somwhat" with Audiofeil(God forbid),about putting the "chicken before the egg"!My thoughts are it would be best,if one got the sense that we could "only" hear the cartridge's personality!With all else just getting out of the way!If all else were perefect,THIS would be the most ideal way to hear an LP.Sure the arm is of major importance,but there really should be NO resonances,or annoyances introduced by it,if possible.
I KNOW,in reality that cannot be,but it is how I kinda like to view it!!!...Just my own idiosyncratic way of looking(listening)at things "audio".....ONLY my opinion!!!Nothing more!!
So,if you,Halcro,are so confident about the definitive superiority of the Copperhead(let's exclude the Cobra,for financial reasons)over the afore-mentioned Triplanar,and Phantom(not to mention your legit comment about the Schroder(jury still out on that one),why not post a review of it on this forum?
I would love to read it,and believe me,I hope there are many more products to come,that push the envelope further.Even beyond those that fascinate all of us,as of now.
Best.

BTW,forgot to mention another point(just some opinionated thoughts.....hopefully taken,"as meant", in good spirits)regarding the supposed "fabulosity" of the "Raven",which I have heard quite a few times(I have no issue with it,and it seems like a very fine table).I DO like the product,alot....BUT...
One thing,mentioned by Valin,....He states a "lack of air"!He goes on about a "lack of spacial characteristics between instruments on the sounstage".Also,there is mention of a somewhat "dark coloration"!He felt the need to add a platter mat,and there is NO effective clamping system!Some would view this as "not so hot"!!How can one be sure the LP is lying "ideally" flat.I guess Valin doesn't think that is so important to good sound!-:)
Yet,it is a RAVE review!!!.....I know this is compared to the wonderful Walker(I've heard that table a load of times,and "it" IS great),but it does make one "think",I would hope!!!Unless one takes these reviewers too literally.
BTW,just so you know where I am coming from,I would gladly own a Raven,but I am happy with alternatives,of which there are many, in the hobby.To me,there are many ways to get really good sound.
WE all split hairs WAY too much,but it IS fun!!
Best.

Sirspeedy I'm not in the industry in any way....I'm an Architect.
Firstly I said that I've never heard the Triplanar arm....I said that the Agent for these arms in Australia just happens to be the CEO of Continuum Audio Labs.
I've heard the Phantom and the Cobra and the Copperhead in domestic settings (not show conditions or dealer rooms)....which puts me ahead of you in having any valid opinions on these arms?
I've heard the Rockport Sirius with its air-bearing arm, the Continuum Caliburn with Cobra arm and the Raven AC with Copperhead all in domestic listening conditions....in fact I'm the first and at this stage only person in the world who has heard the Copperhead on the Raven (I know this because Thomas had not drilled a Copperhead armboard before mine and Continuum had not supplied any Copperheads without the Criterion Tables).
If I were in the States, I wouldn't buy anything other than the Phantom or Triplanar because of the dire condition of the US$, but if audiophiles want to know what the State Of The Art is?.....it is NOT the Phantom or Triplanar IMHO.
No I have not compared the Cobra to the Copperhead to the Phantom to the Triplanar on the SAME Raven AC with the SAME cartridges...........although it would be possible for reviewers to do so (don't hold your breath).
If you are clinging to that fact to proclaim that the majesty of the Phantom arm has NOT been challenged?.....then you are welcome to do so. However if you presume that this is the ONLY test that is valid why don't YOU do it?
Finally for someone who claims to not care what Fremer and Valin say in their reviews?......you certainly quote them a lot!?