Why the sudden popularity of 12 inch arms

Dear Halcro: Thank you to give all of us the opportunity to talk and understand about:

+++++ " Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them " +++++

this is what I posted in other thread along with this:

+++++ " Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment " +++++, and I can add: cables. I'm still supporting those statements.

Now, you states: +++++ " In my experience, the greatest advances in analogue playback have occurred in just the last 10 years with arms, cartridges and turntables! " +++++,
that is totally contrary to my statements ( and there is nothing wrong with that. ).

We can take a look to the " today " analog gear design against some " old " designs, examples:

Triplanar design ( I already heard some samples of this tonearm even in my own system. ), IMHO this " today " design is a very old one that over the last years had/has some mods but the main design does not change.

SME, this " today " ( that I own ) very good design is a real " old " one. Do you know how much years has it?

Morch, this " today " ( that I own ) design " comes from an " old " Japanese Highphonic tonearm design.

Graham. this " today " very good tonearm comes from the Japanese Audiocraft " old " design. Btw, if I can remember the Phantom use a magnetic design for the antiskating, well: do you know that the Lustre GST-801 ( that I own ) not only has a magnetic antiskating but a magnetic VTF too? and the Lustre is a 30+ tonearm design!!!!!

VPI, comes from SAEC.

Brickmann, comes from the " old " Swiss Breuer.

and I can go on an on!!!!!!!!

IMHO only the Schroeder is a real new ( very good and clever bearing design ) tonearm design, oh yes the WT too.

New build materials in the " today " tonearms?, well IMHO many " old " tonearm designs were the ones that start with " new " materials that many of " today " ones are using it: ceramic? SAEC, Titanium?, Technics, Boron/Titanium? Technics, carbon fibre? MS, wood? Grace, etc, etc.

Do you know that no one ( other than Schroeder ) of today tonearms can even the Technics EPA-100MK2 so low bearing friction?, far from there and perhaps this is ( overall ) the tonearm to beat for any " today " tonearms. Do you know all the technology design ( at every design level ) that this Technics use?: bearing, build material, damping, etc, etc, IMHO no one " today " tonearm is near it and this Technics is a stellar performer.
BTW, do you already try/tested it with your today audio system?, please do it.

+++++ " To compound the problems I have with you, all your arms appear to have readily interchangeable headshells which presumably have plug-in electrical contacts? " +++++

well the Graham and Morch comes with the same " problem " design. Btw, there is no perfect audio item ( including tonearms ) and you have to choose your own trade-offs, almost always!!!

+++++ " Your most 'modern' turntable appears to be the Acoustic Solid from Germany. I have heard their Mambo and I'm sorry to tell you that this is not comparable to the Raven AC, Continuum Caliburn or Criterion nor the Walker Procsenium or Rockport Sirius. " +++++

I totally agree with you if you compare the Acoustic Signature/Acoustic Solid with out any kind of isolation on it.
I already posted somewhere that the Acoustic Signature comes with a heavy/terrible isolation problems but if you make your part on this audio game and find how isolate it then the AS is a top performer and a very clever ( bearing and power supply ) design.

I already heard ( in very good audio systems ) all the TTs you named but the Continuum, are very good ones and perhaps the best today examples but the " old " ones like Micro Seiki 5000/8000 or the SZ-1TVS+SZ-1M ( this one is a statement of TT by any today standard ), Nakamichi TX-1000 ( its center record computer technology is very far from any today TTs, well no one of today TT builders care about!!!!!!! This TX-1000 TT technology is UNIQUE all over the analog gear world!!!!!!!! ), do you already try it with your today audio system? or the Micro Seikis? well I did, Technics SP-10MK2 and MK3 ( I own it ), Final Paruthenon?, do you know it? a 1984 design: stellar performer!!!! , Yamaha GT-200X, Denon DP-100, etc, etc
All these " old " designs compete and could beat many of the today ones including yours.

Cartridges?, well other of what you can read here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&read&3&4&

I can tell you that many " old " MC cartridges not only even the best today cartridges but some can/could beat them.
Examples: Goldbug MS Brier, Victor MC L-1000, Sao Win SMC 10, Audio technica AT1000, FR MC-702, Ortofon MC 2000, etc, etc.
How many of these cartridges do you already heard in your today system? how many of the ones that I named in the MM thread?
Btw, the last one today cartridge that I tested in my system was the Air Tight PC-1.

+++++ " Your claim that the old technology of arms is as good as, if not better than the new, is demonstrably false just as your beliefs that the older cartridges (both MM and MC)are legitimately comparable to the newer LOMCs. " +++++

I don't think so because I can prove it, what I think ( IMHO ) is that you can't prove what you posted!!!!!

+++++ " seems to me to indicate that the sound you are able to extract from the vinyl is decidedly second rate. " +++++

well you can't prove this either but if you take that long flight to America and hear it you will be just shocked!! and could have a very nice " new " music/sound experience.

Sirspeedy posted:
+++++ " One just has to look at the better(quite a few)cartridges,and with a good table(there are many),and tonearm(quite a few "decent" choices,too)the serious vinyl hobbyist/collector can have a field-day at his/her local used record store!!!
Too much fun for one lifetime!!! " +++++

and I agree with him but that statement does not means that the quality sound reproduction is better than with those " very old " analog designs ( tonearms/cartridges/TTs ).

Dear Halcro, like some Agoner told me: " High end is who you are, not what you buy ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul,
Thank you for pointing out the derivations of certain pivoted arms.
As there are basically 2 commercially successful methods to achieve the pivoted arm principle (unipivot and double gimbel bearings...the Schroeder double magnet bearing is still essentially a unipivot), and as there are hundreds of different models and/or manufacterers over the last 30 years alone, it seems reasonable that they are all variations on a theme.
It's like saying all turntables are derived from the belt-driven platter, the direct-drive platter or the idler-wheel drive.
In other words...it's not telling us anything!
OK Raul, I have a 30 year old Technics 1200 with Nagaoka MP11 MM cartridge and you would be amazed at how it sounds. It will easily equal the sound of all the new high priced turntables/arms/cartridges available today.
Come to my place and hear....you will be surprised....you can try it?
And please stop using that ' Agoner' quote??......it has no meaning in either English OR Spanish!

Raul, while everybody appreciates your enthusiasm, it sure does seem to be difficult to get you to benefit from more knowledgeable members. You posted that only the manufacturers could answer the OP. I suggest you do call or write to Tri Mai. Mr. Triplanar, as I'm sure you know. This gentleman is perhaps one of the nicest, most affable, most knowledgeable folks I know in the business. He could most certainly explain the differences that have lead to dramatic improvements to a tonearm you claim is no better now than 20 years ago. Will you believe him? Next, I suggest a phone call to Mr. George Merrill. I'm sure that name rings a bell? He would be happy to talk to you. There may not be another person on the planet who is more qualified to help you get the most from your vintage equipment. He can also explain why, and which components have come the farthest in the last thirty years. The average age of most of your system. I look forward to hearing from you after the conversations! Z.

I don't want to give the "suspicious" poster the impression that I am downplaying the "top" stuff of today.Also,I basically can't state that the superb retro set-ups I've heard are comparable,in all "meaningful" areas to such componentry.
What I am saying(from being lucky enough to hear a ton of differing system approaches)is that we(myself included)can easily get caught up in the "gadgetry race".Sometimes over-thinking/analyzing the mechanical aspects of "our" hobby can be a detriment(not always),and this can easily become an expensive game of musical chairs.
I assume(hopefully)that the majority of us got into the hobby for the love of the "music" firstly!I did.
Once one gets into this hobby,deeply,it is very easy to get too into the "gizmotic"(made that word up)aspects of why our stuff sounds so good.We like the reinforcement of industry folks,like good reviews,and good word of mouth to make us feel better about what we have invested in.Also,it is very cool to get good feedback from other owners,and see posts of how they,like us,love some familiar products.
There is a large contingent of music lovers/lp collectors that think that the equipment aspect of the hobby is there ONLY to serve the music.No big stretch there,and almost everyone feels similarly....BUT,these guys(many of which I've met over the years at The Princeton Record Exchange)"really get off" only on the music.The equipment is "nice" to them,but to hear them "go off" on a particular LP "find",and the performance held within the grooves,really has made me feel "sort-of" too materialistic.Liking the "hard work" I've put in, and sonic attributes of my mechanical devices,used to play "music",maybe a bit too much!

I am not eloquent enough to put across the point I am trying to make!

I think that if you have spent alot of time "collecting" and putting together a GREAT music collection(dwarfing the legitimate viability of the materialistic aspect of the hobby)it is far easier to become enraptured with the way music affects us.
There REALLY IS A TON of "not the latest",but "SO" enjoyable systems out there,that it is not hard to become adjusted to different sonic approaches taken by some, in this hobby!
It's nice to "let up" a little on our inner "critical listener",sometimes....When things sound "right"!!
Some time ago,while collecting at Princeton,I ran into this exchange student,from Korea.WHAT A LOVELY GUY!!!
A real music lover/lp collector.He got SO enthusiastic about the hobby(he liked equipment too,but could not afford the latest)during our discussion,that he asked me if I wanted to give a listen to some of his LP "finds" that he had made,during the ONE semester he would be in this country.He was like a little kid,showing me his new toys.Such enjoyable enthusiasm.Instant commradery!
So,I decided it would be worth while to get another "take" on how someone else,from another culture approached the hobby,while in my community.He loved RCA,Mercury,Decca classical stuff,like me.
I was bowled over by this simple setup!!!Not a large room.Not very pricey stuff.Just "truly" wonderfully reproduced "music".He surely knew what he was doing!!
I had a great time...The fellow lost hid grant,soon afterwards and went back to Korea,but I know a LOAD of good LP's went with him!I've not heard from him since,but always show my wife,and daughter the little yellow house he lived in,when we pass by.
Good equipment could be had,quite easily.Getting those priceless LP's would be alot harder!
Sorry for my rant!