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Raven v Walker. Colored v Accurate?

This post has been generated following Jonathan Valin’s recent review of the Raven AC-3/Phantom combination in TAS. What intrigues me is not that JV has been lucky enough to review and buy or have on permanent loan yet another world’s best product. A truly astounding strike rate for any reviewer it must be said. Rather, it is what JV readily describes as the colored sound of the Raven/Phantom combination and the apparent appeal of this sound compared with what JV described as the more accurate sound of the Walker that piques my curiosity. This is not, I hasten to add about the relative merits of either table or their arms. The intention is not to have a slug-fest between Walker and Raven owners.

What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.

On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.

It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.

We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.

So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?

I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
phaser
rauliruegas
13,129 posts
 
Dear Phaser: You, Albert an Plato almost give almost every answer about, there is/are almost nothing to add and all of you already open very wide and interesting/critical " windows " on the home reproduction sound.

There is one subject that IMHO we have to take seriously when we read a professional review like this JV one and that subject is/are how JV is biased to the music sound reproduction and biased to one single audio item ( in this case the TT. ):
JV owns the Walker one for many years and he is extremely happy with it ( like Albert and all Walker's owners. ), if we can remember when TAS made the shoot-out Walker/Kuzma Mr. Valin almost all over the review likes Kuzma the most but at the very end he changes and goes for the Walker, in this Raven/Walker he preffers too the Walker, well he has a tattoo's Walker on his body ( and nothing wrong with that it is a subjective point of view with a great audio item. ) and make me feel that JV is totally Walker's equalized ( well he heard/hear Walker almost every single day, like any one of us hear what we have: we in some ways are equalized for what we own. ) and it is almost impossible to him to made/make fair reviews for other TT's: the Walker always be ( for him ) the best one some way or the other.

Now, I almost always support the tonearm/cartridge importance over the TT's one ( with almost any decent TT ). Here we have two top TT's designs that are totally different between each other not only the TT design it self but more important the tonearm/cartridge/cable stage where through it JV made the review.
Like you already posted and know things can/could be different if you change the tonearm in the Walker ( that you can't do it ) for the Phantom and the same for the Raven.

What I wonder is what means for JV: accuracy/accurate, because IMHO here it is his biased subjective review conclusion.

Till today I always support accuracy over colored/coloration ( any kind ), I'm for the " truer to the recording " and IMHO to be near/nearest " truer to the recording " we need " accuracy ", total accuracy ( and please don't confuse accuracy with analytical, both terms are totally different. ), like it or not. Of course that to some of us we preffer a more colored/euphony sound and for other of us we preffer " what is on the recording ".

+++++ " So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded " +++++

I think in the same way, what JV think about? what every one of us think about?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
dgad
782 posts
 
I would rewrite your thread title a few different ways. Linear Tracking vs. Unipivot could be one title. A 2nd would be tonality vs. accuracy. Colored vs. Accurate is in and of itself biased.

As a Raven owner, I would suggest that the table takes on the character of any mat, any tonearm, tonearm cable & of course cartrdige that you use. This of course is system dependant. I would look at Albert Porter using a Jade & now a PC-1 on a very accurate turntable such as a Walker. Both "colored" cartridges. I used 3-5 cartridges & play around. I prefer neutral when the recording is right. On some recordings a bit of color helps. On others, accurate is the way to go. The Titan I is probably one of the most accurate cartridge. Yet, it misses the magic of a Miyabi or Koetsu.

The thrust of the Raven, which was not addressed 100% in the review is that you can change mats, arms etc. & you will hear it all.

One more thing, with 2 different phono stages, you can often match 2 different tonearms to 2 different cartridges on 2 different phono stages to get almost an equivalent sound out of both arms. It truly is a search for system synergy. In the Ravens case, it allows you to have a few different systems ready to go for different recordings.
elinor's avatar
elinor
275 posts
 
Let us not forget that the choice of microphone at the recording session will color the recording not to mention the placement of the mics and the room in which the recording was made. More directly to the point, I think Valin's review was incomplete since the Walker is an integrated turntable with the Walker arm. The Raven is not integrated and it should have been reviewed with at least one other arm and the same cartridge for a wider and more accurate review of what this table can do. I heard the table at High Water Sound in NYC and I can attest to the fact that it sounds surprisingly different with the Phaentom, the Tri-Planar, and the Dynavector arms. The results were all excellent, but pick your flavor. It's all an illusion from the mics forward. In order to know what live accoustical instruments sound like, you must hear them played in a variety of locations like Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, the Kimmel, Davies Hall, Severence Hall, Covent Garden, La Scala, the Blue Note, Eddie Condon's etc. If you attend live concerts enough and better yet, if you play an instrument, you eventually have a composite mental picture of how instruments sound in life. I cannot think of a better way than through attendance of the real event in many places over a long period of time to gain this knowledge. I have purchased the Raven and it will be delivered shortly. I chose it because it comes close to what I perceive as a natural instrumental timbre in its reproduction of music and I cannot afford the Walker which I think is the closest over a wide and inconsistent collection of recordings. But, make no mistake about it. It is not live music. For that you must eliminate the electronic chain.
uru975
684 posts
 
The posts began with Johnathan Valin's observations of the difference between the Walker and the Raven.
Am not sure any of his reviews have come my way or if so they are recalled. Stereophile is about but not only my limit in reading. And it is with him or any reviewer where one should start.
What kinds of music does he listen to when he just wants to listen to some music? What does he concentrate on in his reviews? All reviewers are expected to be able to identify treble, midrange and bass areas, stengths and weaknesses, but that being said what are his particular areas of musts, interests, appreciation.
Having read Michael Fremer and Art Dudley amongst others of the usual suspects their concerns and particular passions come through, so in reading them it is apparent to me that in giving their reviews they will be fair as well as show where for them this or that componet fails either in this or that area, including price.
The reviewer, the room/hall and our own ears are the main determinents. That they can hear this or that given their system, their ears, and their experience is really quite wonderful and they give us a valuable service but only if we know enough about them from their writings to gain an idea of their biases. Biases in this case are not unlike those on an amp, they allow the music/review to flow much better when dialed in.
These are individuals that unlike most of us get a chance to hear a wide/r ranger of equipment in relationship to each other than most of us. That helps form their views, and like anything, the more you do it the better you get. Practice does make perfect or at least better.
So heres(hears?) to Johnathan who helped albeit inadvertently start a good thread, which has had a lot of valuable information from a bunch of highly trained/educated listeners from which we, including myself, have gained further insight into a hobby/adventure that continues to draw me in as strongly as the law draws its prisoners for a rehearing when necessary or desired.
rauliruegas
13,129 posts
 
Dear Elinor: +++++ " Let us not forget that the choice of microphone at the recording session will color the recording not to mention the placement of the mics and the room in which the recording was made " +++++

this subject is of paramount importance and if we own an accurate system/room at home then we can hear all that.

IMHO I think that we and the reviewers ( specially these one. ) have to understand that what we heard/hear when we attend to a Concert Hall or a Jazz Club or any live music event is different of what is in the recording, many of us want that our systems sound like what we heard on a concert and this means that some of us like some kind of " colorations, let me explain:

when we attend to a live event we are not the only listeners in that place/room almost always is full of people and normally we have a seat that is 15-30 meters from the main stage ( in classical music concerts ) and not always at the center seat position of that main stage, what we are hearing has to be not only with that distance but with the surrounded people around us that affect the sound that comes in our ears and many other subjects ( this is only an example of the recording differences against what we hear/heard in a live event. ), what happen in a recording? in almost all recordings the Hall is empty and the Micro(s) are nearest ( a lot nearest ) to the whole instruments that we are and I have to say that that Micro(s) have an accurate frequency response that are a lot wider that our ears frequency response/perception, all these facts and many others on the recording process tell us that what is on the recording is different to our live perception, now if this is true why almost all of us ( including reviewers ) want to hear/heard our system home in the way we hear/heard at the Concert Hall?, IMHO two different things to evaluate, yes I know that only the people that were at the recording session can/could know how that recording sound and that's why is so important to attend to live events at different seat position and to try to hear ( if possible ) in your home " sounds " from single instrument like: piano, violin, guitar, horn, etc, etc.
Where want I to " go " with all these " words " ?: that almost all of us are hearing " colored " sound reproduction at home, only a few care about what really mean " truer to the recording ", many people likes the " warmer/lush " sound of the live music but my friends that " warmer/lush " sound it is not ( well some times is ) in the recording it is only what we like or what we heard in almost different condition that the recording conditions. Well I think that all this does not help to much on this thread but you Elinor touch it and it is important ( IMHO ) to have opinions ( different ones ) on the subject.

Other things ( IMHO ) that some of us ( including reviewers ) does not have very clear is that if in any decent TT you hear ( like Elinor experience with the Raven ) different tonearms with different or the same cartridge you will hear different kind of sound: different tonality, different accuracy level, different soundstage, different...,different many subjects.
If we believe these facts then why the reviewers ( any ) or us like s to make TT shoot-out between different TT(s) that each one comes with different tonearm/cartridge combination?, it does not make sense, at least to me.

So, that JV Colored v Accurate ( in the way that the review was made ) really means nothing other than JV likes for the better that cartridge performance with the Walker tonearm.

I think that are many ways to make that kind of shoot-out but maybe the only way ( at least the fair way ) is to make that comparison using the same tonearm/cartridge/arm board combination on both ( any ) TTs, this could be make using stand alone arm boards like the Kuzma one.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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