Why vinyl?

03-14-08: Les_creative_edge said:

"In the end I think an LP from analogue masters will sound truer to what the music should sound like than one from a digital source or from a CD made from the analogue masters will likely sound better than digital masters. I...

I think the best source for quality recorded sound is better to best analogue reel to reel machines. But are not as practical for most consumers. Vinyl will be less accurate but will vary from deck to deck because of how it all works. Digital is chock full of possible compromises and other errors. In the end an LP is likely more accurate overall and more natural to our ears than a CD. A digital LP will likely be more pleasing than the CD version because the few inaccuracies it may add will more likely be heard as more pleasing to the listener where as the inevitable inaccuracies in CD playback are nothing but negatives to the listener. ..."

I don't understand why you're concluding these things. We're talking about digital masters, not CDs. If you'd heard a 1-bit DSD master at 5.6MHz I think you'd have a hard time saying that reel-to-reel is "better" or "more accurate".

I think that the best of both analog and digital are very, very good. With 24/192 and soon-to-be widely available 32-bit, or maybe even consumer 1-bit DSD (really already here in the form of the Korg MR1000 DSD recorder for around $1000) the analog advantage has pretty well disappeared, at least to my ears.

As an amateur recordist, the convenience of 130 dB of dynamic range, lack of tape noise or compression is hard to beat.

Dave

130db dynamic range is unusable in any home listening or likely any other venue environment. The typical home will have a general background noise floor of 20-40db. If you go with 130db the max. dynamic range to be above the background noise floor will have to be a volume of 150-170db. Totally unrealistic even at rock concert levels.

I'm not against a good digital masters for vinyl but the fact is probably 99.9 % of all vinyl has been made with analogue masters.

Usable digital mastering today has been corrupted by lousy techniques aka: the LOUDNESS controversy and in reality the 16 bit digital format including the CD has more than enough dynamic range, too much really for anything but the most dynamic classical recordings. Rock, Pop, Country, Jazz etc. all have much lower levels of dynamic range, enough for vinyl to cover fair enough and the CD too as well. It's about resolution and the 16bit digital was borderline. 24/96 will give you a much better resolution capacity but reel to reel analogue covered all the resolution needed for decades now and the LP did so as well. All formats I list here had enough dynamic range for as a source for home listening. Commercial digital mastering of most music today has been destroyed by the compression to get max loudness. Too bad the industry squandered the one true superior trait 16 bit digital had over any analogue, dynamic range.

vinyl had at min 60db on lesser quality discs and 75+ db on the best discs made

R to R with Dolby NR had a similar dynamic range between 65-75 db using DBX it was over 80db

analogue cassettes were 55db with cheap tapes and no Dolby B to 75db witch Dolby C or Dolby S, again over 80db with DBX.

16 bit digital of course maxed mathematical a 96db.

But it is resolution that hurts ordinary 16bit digital and is mostly (arguably) overcome by 24bit digital. Resolution and harmonics were never an issue with good quality analogue gear. Only distortion and bottom line signal to noise ratio was. With the proper use of Dolby or DBX that was mostly gone and with better grade tapes even distortion was not a factor anymore.

I'm glad that 25+ years after digital mastering and the CD that digital has a venue for better sound now especially to make new vinyl with but the general consumer is happy as pigs n' s**t with MP3 or iPod garbage. Go figure by the time digital began to get it truly right nobody really cares except us here who want and enjoy good quality music sound be it quality analogue or digital on CD, downloaded or to make great new vinyl with.

Les, if you've ever recorded large brass ensembles live you'll appreciate the safety that 130dB of dynamic gives. I can record 40dB under 0dB and get a wonderful, low noise, hi resolution recording. With tape I'll need to be right up against the tapes limit to capture the full dynamic range (40-50dB).

You compare good analog to bad digital. I'm comparing good digital to good analog and I see them as equal today and the balance actually turning toward digital, but slowly. Good 2-channel SACDs and DVD-As now rival my best D2D analog, IMHO.

Produceers in both formats make bad choices, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the potential of both systems.

Dave

But how can you use 130db dynamic range though? Any home listener to take advantage of this about a minimum 20db household background noise would endure 150db volume peaks. Nobody can stand that level for any length of time. You as a recording engineer may like the idea of 130db dynamic range available to you but me as listener cannot ever use it. If you use it in your recordings any low level sounds will be lost to me in order to not blow me out of my house or car along with suffering hearing damage and blown electronics. Or you will force me to ride to gain control talking way the relaxation and enjoyment of it all.

As I said if digital recording is employed properly and of a high resolution format I'd suspect LP's made from such will be very good. But good analogue gave and can still give us very good quality to master by too.

BTW just to make things clear, I'm not arguing or trying to be a jerk, just enjoying a good clean discussion and debate which all just gives us all good things to exercise our brains over.:-)

Les, my friend, no offense taken at all. Yeah, we're all just talking here and trying to learn. I understand what you saying and feel the spirit.

I suspect from you comments that you've never really done any serious recording. The 20dB of ambient noise that you mention uses up part of the dynamic range and it's often really higher.

Say you have a fine consumer reel-to-reel recorder with 115 to 120dB of dynamic range at its highest speed. Your goal is to have as little tape noise as possible, so you'll need to record at the highest level possible without exceeding the recorder's dynamic range. So, you have the group play their loudest passage and set the recording level so it's just below or just touches 0dB (115dB in this case). You're recording trumpets and trombones that easily have dynamic range of 40 to 50dB: therefore, your recorder will be set so that the quietest levels are recorded at 65dB (115dB -50dB) which is very soft, even in a quiet room.

With tape, those quiet levels will have too much noise. Of course if you use the very best professional recorder a 30ips (burning very expensive tape) you'll gain 10 more dB of dynamic range. Anyway, back to our consumer machine, you've got a problem, the dynamic range IS too huge. What you do is move your mic back or use a compressor.

With the Korg, I've an extra 15 to 20 dB of dynamic range, which is a huge advantage. For instance, at the Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest, which features a 64-trumpet ensemble at one point, I can set my mics at the front of the stage and have someone play a few loud notes from close range and then back of 15 or 20dB for my average recording level. Since the mics are 20-feet or so from the performers and the noise level of the Korg is so low that I don't have to sit at the recorder and "ride the gain" to avoid overload. I can actually play in the ensemble, record everything and edit later.

Good pop recording have 20-30 dB of dynamic range in them. Get a Radio Shack SPL meter and hold while you listen to Nora Jones or Jane Monheit. They'll start many songs at around 72dB at the beginning then average around 83dB and then peak for just a few seconds at 92 or so dB. On a good system with a good recording, that's very pleasant, not fatigueing at all.

Now listen to a something really dynamic, like Hugh Mesekala's Simela on 45rpm LP. It goes from about 65dB to just under 100dB at my listening position. It's really exciting. They hold the peak for more than a second or two, making the peak VERY dramatic by holding it for 15 seconds or so. That's loud, but still just under 100 dB. Some on this forum might actually let that peak get up to 110 dB, particularly if they set the level based on the very quiet beginning.

So, you're still saying, "that's not 130dB" and you're right. The extra 20 to 30dB allows the recording engineer ease of recording. If Stimela were ever going to get any air play, it'd need to be compressed. Listen to Motown from the '60s and '70s or EW&F from the '70s. The trumpets are actually blowing their brains out, but they sound like toys on those recordings, due to very serious compression, used to fit the trumpet within the context of the rest of the music. Drums are also seriously compressed on most pop recordings.

So, to summarize, the 130dB of dynamic range gives the recordist the luxury of being able to set and forget and still get a high quality. Brass and percussion can be difficult to put on any recording other than those meant to be played on the very best equipment; therefore, post recording mixing will often change the level on the final master.

Dave