2. analog
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lps sound bad

I am finally listening to lps after going perhaps 20 years without, due to a recent (about 3 months) investment into a vinyl rig. I'm absolutely bummed that perhaps 30 to 40% of my collection really isn't worth playing due to sonic considerations.

I have an aproximate 2,000 lp collection, nearly all are new album, record show, or garage sale purchases dating from the early 70's thru the mid 80's. These are mostly all very well preserved, with minimal wear, dust pops, scratches etc. My problem is not with the shape or cleanliness of the records (they have been hand cleaned in accordance with 'expert' advice, then cleaned again in a VPI 16.5). Nor are they mistracked, none of that inner groove distortion.

It is also not a setup issue, cartridge setup is absolutely correct, and every other parameter of setup, from the wall shelves/isolation to power cords and ICs has had careful attention.

My issue is in the mastering and/or pressing of the lps. This 30 to 40% have issues, mostly with small soundstaging and/or lack of frequency extension, especially in the bass. They simply sound small scale and lightweight, like mid-fi to me. The other 60 to 70% of my collection sound relatively huge in comparison, large, airy soundstaging, transparent, dynamic, especially the micro dynamics.

Now, the vast majority of the 30 to 40% that sound small scale are what I believe to be, original pressings of 70's rock music. The rest, mostly 50's and 60's recordings from a huge variety of genres, sound wonderful, mostly way better than my digital.

I suspect what I'm hearing is excessive compression due to poor mastering and/or pressing. At this point I'm not sure whether the main culprit is mastering or pressings. As I previously mentioned, most of these recordings were purchased in the early 70's to mid 80's, thus, I believe they are original pressings, which leaves mastering as the culprit. On the other hand, I have digital remasters of a number of these rock recording, a small number sound larger scale than their lp counterparts, which leads me to suspect pressings in some cases.

From this, I extrapolate that mastering is the culprit in most cases. Furthermore, I believe the bad sounding lps sound bad because of solid state recording studio equipment. My 50's and 60's recordings nearly all sound big, large scale, some may not have the greatest frequency extension, especially in the highs, but they all are tonally and dimensionally full, some luciously so, in the midrange. These recordings come from the heyday of tube equipment, both in the recording studio and home audio.

I should add, I'm not trying to make a case of solid state recording studios being the sole culprit here, as a small percentage of my 70's rock recordings sound large scale and satisfying. Rather I think it is solid state done on the cheap, and with bad ears on the part of the producers and engineers that is at fault. The late 60's and early 70's had more than it's fair share of crappy solid state, and most producers and engineers didn't know the first thing about quality sound (as remains the case).

Still, it seems the 50's and 60's producers and engineers could do less harm to the sound, the tube recording equipment always had the relatively voluptuous midrange. And perhaps the tube home audio of the day let them hear at least a semblance of quality, so they tried to replicate that sound in the studio.

As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point, I don't care to go through all the hassles inherent in the playing of records that sound only as good or worse than their digital counterparts.

I'm now getting the itch to buy lps new, I'm just wondering if the newly minted rock lps of classic rock are worth buying. It seems the digital remasters I have are only marginally better, in most cases, over older digital pressings. I suspect the same will hold true for vinyl, the new remasters will only sound marginally better than my original pressings.

At this point, I'm basically writing off classic rock recordings on lp. While I know classic rock can sound good on lp, the small number of exceptions I've experienced leave me highly skeptical. Future purchases will be mostly limited to recordings (of all genres) prior to the 70's. Future classic rock purchases will be mostly in digital form, for any lp purchases I will have to rely on thumbs up by reviewers I trust. Contemporary recordings are problematic as well, sound quality is all over the place in the digital recording studios, it seems to be a crapshoot, have to rely on reviewers here as well.

Vinyl setup:
VPI Scoutmaster
JMW 10.5i tonearm
SDS
Dynavector 20XL
Cayin Phono-One
sns
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
As things stand, I'm somewhat disappointed in vinyl at this point. I was hoping these 70's rock recordings would sound much better than their cd counterparts (remastered or not). 30 to 40% of my collection is basically throw away at this point.
I started listening to LPs in the early '60s, and by the early '70s I had my first "real" stereo and by 1975-6 I was working in home audio shops. So I'm really familiar with the evolution of LPs through this period and the sound of mass market rock records in the mid-'70s.

The mid-'70s pop/rock records are probably some of the worst-sounding, the most compressed, and sometimes indifferently mastered. It was also the era of the worst vinyl when the first "gas crisis" enticed the record companies to use recycled vinyl to make new records. It was at the peak of the suits running the record lables as pure money machines.

This period only lasted a few years, and there are also many good-sounding LPs from this period. Outstanding examples include Supertramp and Steely Dan. It wasn't long before "virgin vinyl" became a big selling point for new records, and the LPs of the late '70s and '80s sounded great, such as The Cars, The Police, Men At Work, Huey Lewis, etc.

Even at that, however, I generally much prefer any pop/rock LP from the '70s over its CD counterpart.

What are some examples of bad-sounding classic rock you have trouble with?
sns OP
3,393 posts
 
Ejlif, what gives you the idea I'm not listening to other's suggestions? I am treating all ideas as credible, I simply hold fast to the idea that some lps sound like crap, it seems as if some refuse to acknowledge that.

Some have posted they can get past the poor sonics on some lps and live with it. I can totally understand that, I do the same with digital. On the other hand, some seem to trying to tell me that I shouldn't have bad sounding lps, there must be something wrong with my system or something. This, I don't get! Does every lp sound good in their system? If they do, I would surely like to hear their system, perhaps I can become enlightened.

I am simply defending my listening preferences, I do not wish to hear bad sounding lps. Take a worse case scenario, even if 40% of my records are unlistenable for me, 40% of 2,000 is 800, that still leaves me with 1,200 I can truly enjoy. I also doubt that 40% can be extrapolated to my entire collection, as I've purposely played the most suspect albums early on in this process.

Johnnyb, you agree with me there are many bad recordings from that era, thank you. This goes along with exactly what I've been saying all along. A certain percentage of classic rock era lps sound like crap. As to what percentage, that is still an open book.

Johnnyb, I mentioned in previous posts the offending lps. Just off the top of my head, I can add Eagles-Hotel California, one of the worst ever, Fairport Convention-Rising For the Moon, Bee Gees-2 Years On, one of the worst ever, Alice Cooper-Love it do Death, crapola.

The only real argument people should have with me is, my inability to listen to this stuff on vinyl, when I can on digital. Again, this is simply about perception, for psychogical reasons I can accept less on digital.

A recent post mentioned that every post about digital vs. vinyl turns into a war. I sort of feel like I'm in the middle of that war right now. I'm on both sides, I like digital for what it is, and analog for the best it can be, what's wrong with that?

I'm not being pedantic, I simply admit I can't listen to lousy vinyl. If saying some classic rock era lps sound like crap is being pedantic, then I guess I'm guilty on all counts.
stiltskin
499 posts
 
If Rock was the only music that I listened to, I would not of spent a fraction of what I have spent on a system.

There are many reasons why most rock recordings are terrible.

However there are some exceptions that do stand out.

Someone in this thread mentioned a company, Better Records.
Better Records .com. I checked it out.

What he does for a on line business I have gone that route myself picking up several early or first release copies of a favorite band just to find the one to own.
Preferably recordings of country of origin.

Most recent example.
Last year while in Ireland I found a gem of an Lp, Pink Floyds Mettle, excellent condition cover and vinyl.

A very early release. The recording is miles ahead of any North American releases. Very enjoyable!

Though over the years I probably bought this particular Lp more then a dozen times, British ,German and North American releases. This is what it takes if you want that one Rock Lp.

1950s and 1960s vintage vinyl in Jazz , Classical and Folk is an entirely different story when it comes to exceptionally well recorded music.

And yes ,many of the new non rock reissues of today are exceptional.
Music Matters Blue Notes ,Speakers Corner and Cisco just to name a few.
oregon
828 posts
 
Sns,
I listen to 90% vinyl and 10% digital. And yes, I agree, there are many poorly recorded rock Lps. The guys in the recording booths were most likely just as stoned as the musicians and had no clue, or didn't care.
If I can't find a good rock LP, then the digital remains as background music because the vinyl sucks. Take many of Cream recordings, I have about 4 Disreali Gears and the japanese pressing is VG+. But the others are late pressings and they just don't have the warmth and bloom (yes, Claptons guitar and Jacks voice can sound warm).
Some old Animal LPs are horrid, but I do have a couple which are excellent- bass is articulate and engaging which provides the anchor to some great song writing and musicianship.
I tend to play a whole bunch more Jazz and Classical on my vinyl rig because they are better recordings, where the engineers tried to capture the music, not merely raising levers in the studio.
But overall, vinyl rules. No doubt.
That said, I have some excellent CDs which move me- mostly Jazz remasters.
For what it's worth, the one piece I question is your choice of phono preamp.
Also, get together with your audio friends and take your crappy records and your good records just to compare and see if you are hearing the same things.
Generally, I agree with you. 40 percent crap is about right. But these purchases were likely made before you started down this crazy path called audionervosa!
sns OP
3,393 posts
 
Thank you, Stiltskin. Yes, I could add my Pink Floyd's Meddle pressing to the stinker list. I've heard the British pressings of classic rock are offen superior to the US versions.

I also find jazz, classical and folk from that era sounds excellent, not one has been a bummer so far. I've also enjoyed my easy listening and country lps from that era. None of this stuff has that overly compressed sound, micro dynamics are intact, and sense of scale is nice, sounds much more like humans making music to me.

I will have to try out some of my newer acquisitions in the coming weeks. I have lots of stuff from the 80's I haven't played yet, also have some more recent remasters I have yet to play.
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