2. analog
  3. 1222902620

2008 RMAF – – – all things analog.

I have two questions/comments on the 2008 RMAF below.

1) First thing…

Who’s Going?

I’m going for my second consecutive year. I enjoyed last year a great deal. I had wonderful discussions with analog types like Thom Mackris, Alvin Lloyd, Jeff Cantalono/Thomas Woschnik, and Frank Schroeder. I had time with my own LPs on all of their tables as well as quite a few others. I’m looking forward to this coming year as well.

If you are going to the 2008 RMAF, I’d like to know so I can meet some of you out in Denver.

2) Second thing…

Any suggested Table, Cartridge, Arms to pay particular attention to?

Again, If you are going to the 2008 RMAF, I’d like to know so I can meet some of you out in Denver.

Dre
dre_j
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Sonofjim,

You understand the economics behind making a cutting edge, top class product for a very limited market, so calling the price "ridiculous" wasn't quite fair. How about, "unfortunate"?

An entry level BMW wasn't a relevant comparison of course. That product contains little cutting edge technology and it enjoys substantial, worldwide sales volumes over which tooling costs are defrayed; rather like a VPI table but on a vaster scale since, unlike turntables, nearly every household owns a car. For a meaningful car analogy, consider the Bugatti Veyron or a Formula One race car. Like the Saskia, these products involve original technological development costs apportioned across tiny production runs. Also like the Saskia, the average person will never own one. C'est la vie...
sonofjim
557 posts
 
True. Unfortunate is a better word and it is a beautiful table. Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,171 posts
 
Quiddity, your 2-watt figure regarding the Empire motor is incorrect- by a factor of 10. At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts.

If you turn the motor on for just an instant and then try to stop it by grabbing the motor shaft with your fingers, you stand a good chance of the motor spindle cutting through your skin. You can turn the turntable on while holding the platter so it won't move, then turn the unit off, and then release the platter- the flywheel action of the motor will set the platter spinning.

Obviously it needs no help getting the platter up to speed or keeping it on speed, regardless of the music or tracking weight imposed. The speed stability of Empire turntables has long been one of the best in the business. That is one of the things that made them such a good candidate for update.
macrojack
1,303 posts
 
I think you have to view something like the Saskia as an artistic statement, unlike similarly priced Wilson speakers which are mass production merchandise, and therefore more appropriate to your BMW analogy.

On the other hand, in what way is an idler drive turntable cutting edge technology?

I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?

I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?
mosin
410 posts
 
Sonofjim,

" ...Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so."

I hope so, too. Saskia is a different beast, though. Still, maybe someday it will lead to alternatives that are within reach of more people.

Atmasphere,

"At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts."

I'm sure Mark will be along, but my understanding of that particular motor is that it is a hysteresis eddy current motor that uses a capacitor, so that it can be run on single phase mains. Otherwise, it is a three phase motor. I believe Mark has made controllers for it which are successfully used by some Japanese customers. Anyway, the current draw is near thirty watts, but the output is substantially diminished because an eddy current motor is particularly wasteful with energy. It purposefully wastes the bulk of the energy by leaking between phases. This may appear to be a bad thing, but the motor is actually smoother running as a result...cogging is far less apparent. So, I take it that Mark was speaking of "applied" power, not consumption. My motor is even more wasteful, but it has twice the torque. The benefit of both motors would be more appropriately considered to be their moment of inertia, which is, as your example notes, rather impressive. To sum it all up, synchronous used in turntables are typically less wasteful than hysteresis eddy current ones, so one that is in a smaller package can actually be more powerful when measured by ordinary means.

Macrojack,

"I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?"

Yes, and no. It is true that it is traditional in many ways, but I tried to break some eggs, too. There are some new twists.

"I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?"

Would Saskia be a substantial difference to you? That would be for you to decide, of course. One person who does own the SP-10 MKII has listened to Saskia extensively, however.

Here...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1220542524

All that said, I believe the most important thing is that you enjoy the music for its passion. When I had nothing more than an old Dual 1019, which is many times inferior to the SP-10, I still listened to records, and I enjoyed them. It is nice being able to actually hear the decay of a piano note, however. :)

Best,
Win
More to discover