Nagra VPS

Dear friends: As you know there are two threads on almost the same subject.
I read with interest both and I can see that the Nagra owners as the people that already heard it are really satisfied ( good thing ) and reading around the Nagra ( in its website, Stereophile and other forums. ) I wonder why that " keenness ", let me to explain a little:

loking to its design and reading through JA evaluation the Nagra has some trouble with its high output impedance ( either on tube mode or SS one ) that build/produce frequency deviations ( colored the sound ) and like JA point out it needs a line stage with 100k ohms at input impedance but even with this impedance figure the Nagra is in " trouble ".
I can't understand why Nagra write in their website that the VPS is a good " mate " to the Nagra PLP where the input impedance is around 20K and where the VPS deviations/distortions will be higher: this is out of my mind and IMHO tell me between other things and with all respect to Nagra people that they don't take in count those critical quality performance subjects that are really critical in a phono stage.

Th VPS choose to use a nonbalanced design with step up transformers that add colorations/distortions and that IMHO makes more harm that help about.

But the " trouble " does not finish there but go on in the most important subject ( from my point of view ) in any phono stage: inverse RIAA eq. deviation, well the VPS is really bad on this regard and far from the recording and not only because its high RIAA frequency deviations but because ( too ) the asymetry between channels on the same subject, this means that the VPS RIAA it is not only with those high deviations but different for each channel: http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/908nag/index5.html

Now, if you read MF review he point out the several and different colorations on the VPS, he is hearing what JA measures on it.

My interest is almost always to be nearest to the recording and I like to share with the people this same target and IMHO the VPS goes against it more than other phono stages out there: no, nothing is perfect.

I know that almost everyone of you ( owners ) are really satisfied with this unit and nothing wrong with that but I always like to understand what happen around an audio item comments/reviews and I like to have my feets down the earth.

So I read what you posted with those facts in mind to understand what in reallity are you saying/hearing on the VPS performance.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

One thing, not mention in the fact you are enumerating? did you listen to it, to verify those comment? it would be interested, to explain your Benchmark versus the stats? don't you think and also not forgotting, your impression!

regards

Quote: Ferrari, make poor family car, but hey, that's not the point! is'n it?

Hi Raul, sorry I missed your last trip through central tx. I talked to some of my friends up in Dallas, they were impressed with your phono/pre "much better than I was expecting" That says a lot considering the state of art equipment they have...sounds like you have a great piece.

Regarding the Nagra VPS, I got a chance to audition it, in my system, side by side with my BAT VKP10SE superpak. My BAT Phono had NOS tubes in it and was being run fully balanced (xlr in and out) going in to my BAT pre and BAT amps.

The Nagra was run into the same pre and amp, same phono front end (SME 20/2, IV,Vi, Lyra Skala, Purist Venustas din to XLR) however, I used xlr to rca adpaters to connect the tonearm cable to the Nagra RCA only input. Somewhat of compromise to the Nagra. Plus given the BAT phono is fully balanced the BAT pre was seeing a single ended input (with the Nagra VPS) vs the fully balanced output on the BAT phono. So, another challenge for the Nagra VPS...

Also, having a all BAT amplication chain, no issues with impedance matching, no input transformers on the phono, and rated by a very well respected Stereophile reviewer "one of the top 3 phono stages I've heard"

All that said, I loved the VPS. Nothing against the BAT VKP1OSE Superpak, it is still great with it's strengths in a jet black noise floor and typical BAT house sound (powerful, flesh on the bones, great imaging and stage). The Nagra has a see through transparency, large expasive image and exceptional delineation and placement of the instruments, and a PRaT that is killer. My toes were tapping. That emotional connection to the music increased. It sounded more like live unamped music-if all this is your "colorations" I'll take it.

I do think it's a perfect match for my system. The BAT Pre and Amp with the 6h30 tube can be a touch cold.

If your interest in to be "nearest to the recording" the Nagra VPS is a must audition. At only 6k new, small footprint, no heat output, just 3 tubes, it's quite a offering. Next time you're in central Tx, pls stop by.

Bring your ears and leave the measurements behind on this one :), if I've learned anything with the hobby, the ears don't lie, they might get fooled a few times, but not in this case...

Anyway, as always, it's a pleasure knowing you and sincerely appreciate all your thoughts around A'gon!

Dear John: As I posted I know that you like it and there is nothing wrong with that and if your toes were tapping that's very fine for you, I'm not against that.

My point of view goes a little " deeper " or better yet is more on what I almost always try to find: something that put me nearer to the recording.

I respect your opinion not only like a person but like a VPs owner but I think that my targets are a little different from yours ( but I know that as a whole you and me like that our toes stay tapping!! ).

I don't want to go very in deep in the subject but maybe is enough to say that everything the same I prefer an audio item that is more accurate to the recording: specially on phono stages.

John as a rule I don't like to add " colorations " ( any ) to what I hear that's why I'm extremely carefully about, for me to preserve the cartridge signal integrity all over the audio chain is a must to have/worry.

I'm not saying that the Nagra sounds bad NO what I'm saying is that add to many colorations to the cartridge signal, it is a product where the designers ( again IMHO ) does not care to much on the subject to preserve the cartridge signal integrity and for me is not acceptable from a quality performance point of view.

You and me know that many " colorations " are easy to our ears but this fact does not means that is right.

I can't applaud to Nagra for this design because like a customer I need that Nagra do it better ( lot better ) next time.
In other way, for example, I have to applaud Ralph from Atmasphere because he really cares about that beloved cartridge signal integrity in his latest design that from my point of view and from a design point of view is the best all tube design out there, no doubt about: the Atmasphere is a unique tube design by any standard: like it or not.

John I posted 2-3 times that we need to help to the designers/manufacturers on audio to grow-up but IMHO we are not helping when we applaud something that in essence goes aginst the quality performance.
Maybe some of us have to think in a whole new way about the whys/how/where/what to look in the very near future to achieve an elevate the whole quality performance in the high end industry.

John, many people speak about the importance of SYnergy in our audio home systems but several of them IMHO have a wrong understand on what really means Synergy.
A mistmatch impedance between two audio items preclude Synergy, some people cares more about that others.

I know that it is more easy to set up/conform a system where we don't care about that one where we care about, let me tell you this: when yo hear/heard a system with true/real synergy you can't go back, the differences are of paramount importance, the quality level performance is on other level, perhaps you never had that opportunity to heard/hear it and like you say: " next time you come to Mèxico " be my guest and of course if you have time I will be with you in my next trip to USA: a pleasure!.

Regards adn enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear jazz: from the design point of view IMHO the Nagra VPS is far away from Ferrari ( Ferrari is a especialist on car design where Nagra is not on phono stages. ) and like you say that's not the point.

Regards adn enjoy the music.
Raul.