Reason for buying old/classic turntables

Thanks to Mikelavigne for the super informative article. I never looked at a turntable like described in the article. Being an analog freak for the longest time, I can say that I have become a Direct Drive supporter. Playing a solo piano piece through a DD table is the easiest way tell the strengths of a DD table.

70/80's DD tables suffer a lot from their cheaply made plinths. Today is year 2008...soon 2009 and we have learnt a lot about damping, isolation, use of specific materials etc vs in the 70's. All the knowledge gathered in the past 30-40 years can easilly transform a good motor unit into a great sounding table.

Thermonicavenger, I have to disagree on why most TT mfrs go for belt drive - it certainly isn't to make it rich selling belts. And when Technics was selling its SP-10Mk2 in 1975 for 250k yen (the average monthly salary for the household head in the top-earning quintile of Japanese households in 1975), they certainly did not care about trying to squeeze out a few extra yen on the aftermarket (though they nicely provided with an upgrade path with the Mk3 a few years later).

Personally, I think most people who make TTs now are smaller shops who are built around working with materials rather than working with the electronics and/or motors, and frankly, I think it is because a lot of people got sucked into the 'smooth sound' of really good high-mass platter belt drives. Heck, I'm still a sucker for it.

The MicroSeiki designs are not terribly high-tech. They are simply very, very well-machined. And I agree, they don't make them like that anymore.

Are the old decks that over-hyped? People will argue that a good new Technics 1200 is better than the old decks any day of the week. Well, most of the tables (from the big mfrs) a rank or two down from the top in the late 70s and early 80s had better torque, AND better inertia moment. Some of the plinths stunk, but some were quite OK (though those decks are among the rarest). And you can get that technology now, with the original arm (which in some cases are really top notch) for not a lot of money. The trickle-down technology was ridiculously good (still is - most of the makers are still present in precision electronics (Technics = Matsushita/Panny, Aurex = Toshiba, Diatone = Mitsubishi Electric, Lo-D = Hitachi, Exclusive = Pioneer, and Kyocera and Sony are, well, Kyocera and Sony)) and as mikelavigne says, with a new phono stage, cart, plinth, etc, these compete with the best out there.

And Macrojack, I would be very surprised if you did... I don't think I've seen more than 2-3 people ever mention it :^)

Dear Chris: +++++ " Reason for buying old/classic turntables " +++++

I think that each one of us have a different answers about. In my case I buy my Micro Seiki because permit to mount four tonearms along is a good performer. My DD units (Denon/Technics ) are units that I own many years ago way back that I knew the belt drive option.

But IMHO if you don't have a very good reason ( other that the old TT's are less expensive/lower prices. ) then I don't see the necessity to buy a vintage TT ( specially BD ones ) because in its different price range levels and quality performance level the today units are really good ( some at the same level of the vintage ones but some others are better that the old ones. ) and have the advantage that you can have not only parts and service/support but a warranty from the dealer/manufacturer.

Now, this is something that I posted in other thread about DDvsBD:

+++++ " IMHO it is not write the last word on TTs: DD, BD or Idler ones, which one is the last word?, very very hard to say because no one is perfect and all of them have its own design advantages and disadvantages too. Of course that the design execution is a critical subject but everything the same it is a very hard and complex " call " for say the least. " +++++

I can think that if " price/money is no object " then my choice will be for today TT's.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I am guilty of falling in love with vintage tables and have 6 to prove the point - Micro-Seiki RX5000; Victor TT-101; SP10 Mk2; Lenco L75; Sony PS-X70; Micro-Seiki BL-51; oh and I have an old AR-XA waiting to be revived. Add to these a bunch of old tone-arms such as Lustre 801; Audiocraft 4400; Sony PUA-1600L and I come to the conclusion its a bit like buying old sports cars - performance OK, pride of ownership ...... priceless! BTW I am lusting after a Thorens TD-124, a Yamaha GT2000; Pioneer Exclusive P3; Sony PS-X9 etc. etc!

Now, with great reluctance the truth is:- that today, the best sounding rig is my Oracle Delphi V SE, Dynavector 507 II and Miyabi McBee. I love all my vintage stuff, and it all sounds great (my Yamaha CA2010 amp is sublime in my ski chalet) but let's be realistic we are not judging on quantitative measures alone but "perceived enjoyment" and it is really nice to connect with some of the vintage gear.

One phenomena we should consider is that the Linn Sondek LP 12 hijacked the reality of what sounded good - and I used to own one. The Linn had a less analytical presentation than the mainstream Japanese audio in the 70's and the press hyped to a point of evangelical proportions and DD became passe and belt drives were it all of a sudden. Interestingly, as a previous owner of an AR belt drive, followed by a Heybrook TT, the LP12 became the standard not by design, but by consistent implementation and good marketing. Then with Thorens also selling expensive belt drive tables, that sounded very nice, and the Japanese DD tables in consumer friendly lightweight plinths that sounded poor, we became aficionados of belt drives. Now 20 years later with better implementation of constrained mass plinths and so on, we get optimum performance of the older gear. - and it does not sound bad at all!

Reality is that there have been no substantial technology shifts in table design or , well engineered mechanics from 30 years ago are competitive with anything well engineered and designed today. For me, the vintage gear is competitive, but not necessarily better and visa-versa.

Folks like Teres have done an outstanding job of tweaking existing technology with better implementation (I have installed a Verus rim drive on my RX5000 and love it) but the technology has not changed significantly and therefore my conclusion is that vintage or modern, the performance will be defined by attention to detail, well executed design and tight manufacturing tolerances and there is no single platform that wins - and I can demo you DD, Idler, Belt and best implementation wins, not a specific technology platform.

Hi Radicalsteve, what do you think of the old ugly-as-sin but truly magnificent Thorens Reference turntable? This should be the best turntable ever made, together with the Rockport Sirius III and the Goldmund Reference of course. No vintage collection is complete without :)

Chris