cart measurement vs quoted spec

Hi Larryi,
you say:
+++ I wonder if your problem with orchestral crescendi has to do with your channel imbalance issue. +++
Right now I think it has much to do with it, lots! But even more so, the out-of-whack L/R cross-talk!
Firstly it is much less than spec. and secondly it is 6dB in difference between L/R! If things get busy the channel info starts to 'smear' across, the louder the more noticeable, wouldn't it?
And what else would that be but distortion I ask?

Next, you say:
... initially all seemed quite fine. (When listening to this lend out cart)
Most folk can't even hear a 1dB difference in SPL for a start! (Mono) ---- BUT most folk can hear the DISTORTION caused by such an imbalance,(stereo) yes?
If not getting to the bottom of it (as I called it), you go on and on, with your alignment tweaks to no avail!

Now, let's have some more low down on this quality issue. In an off-line email exchange we/I have a case with a Jubilee owner, who just for the life of it can't get rid of the same kind of symptoms I seem to hear, hallo --- that brand you mentioned.
Next, same brand, also Jubilee with a 3 time factory return! And still not right, plus a split open body side of about 15 thou! And never addressed during the various returns! You mentioned quality issues, now that sound like one.
Pictures are right here by me, if that should sound like an 'overstatement', it is not, as it finally was taken back after plenty PT of prove it on my side.

OK, again my intend is not to blacken any name. --- I still have NOT disclosed the make showing these measurement problems, there where some guesses I did not confirm.

It truly makes me think, how many reticent alignment issues are actually based in an out-of-balance spec cart.
Let's see if we can get a bit closer to THAT part of the issue.

As Raul has stated: We ALL seem to trust those quoted measurements --- and what helps is, that it is nigh impossible for a lot of users to set-up a proper test. Not everyone has acquaintances prepared to spend hours on your gear, if the have an oscilloscope for a start.

Thank you for sharing,
Axel

All that stuff you are talking about does not even SHOW on the scope!

My point exactly. If the tool doesn't suit the task, stop using it and find one that does.

I have tried EVERY trick, ... Alignment-tweaks are 'peanuts' if you have such discrepancies!

Agreed, and I never suggested any alignment tweaks. I did and still do suggest that the audible distortions, horrible measurements and visible defect combine to indicate that this cartridge is beyond hope. Why not just admit it and move on?

[/quote]... why would I get into all this pain with no reason? [/quote]An excellent and serious question, to which only you can provide the answer.

Hi Dan_ed,
why is it that some of you folk make me feel like having root-channel?

Having insinuations of lacking integrity, lacking general understanding of the basic issues, using inane approaches to problem solving, and the like is not warming ones cockles, now would it?

Like just read your own fine stuff here please:
"Having been through a few such discussions with him I know it is just not worth the effort. :-)"

So far I always tried my very best to answer queries, and if some of the opposed party finds it not to their liking, they just put the "phono down"? Hm...

Putting an agenda like this is leaning pretty far out of the bus! It takes courage, for me it does!
I also don't want to come over like some fool, I am simply looking for civilised discourse, --- though I am known to get a bit enthusiastic at times, it is NEVER meant to be unkind --- and all say, AMEN :-)

Greetings,
Axel
PS: Ever heard of EST? Erhard Seminars Training? Well it might help to get a handle on some interactions, as long as I'm not called an EST-hole :-)

Doug,

if a manufacturer would only share that easily your trash it and dump it approach.
10 thou out of centre, since you seem to refer here to optical inspection, is not to my current knowledge a reject criteria in THAT industry.

Now if it helps, I worked over 30 years in the electronics industry and most of that time in Semiconductor Manufacturing, so I do have some idea about quality issues, if you please. And in the spirit we like to get to the bottom of things...

Axel

Axel,

My attempt to help was more to do with your questions that you asked about your measurements and your results. Many of the questions I asked were because the translation of your posts were unclear to me. There are a number of things that still puzzle me that may be the cause of some of your measurement results. I'm not saying they are flawed but the results are puzzling nonetheless.

Thanks for the response on who did the measurements and what happened. Knowing that the measurements will not be redone any time soon or that another cartridge cannot be checked using the same measurement technique, it may not be helpful to continue discussions on the technical aspects of what may be contributing to the results you asked about in the original posting. This is simply because you are not currently able to double check anything or test any new procedures. I mistakenly thought that you wanted to run more tests and find out if the procedure was solid and you were confident with your results. Hopefully when you have a chance to try this again, you can post about it.

I do know what cartridge you are speaking of. If I had one, I'd be able to help you out by checking it out specifically. But I'm not sure those results would be helpful to you since it would be a physically different cartridge.

To answer your question to me about one of my suggestions. The reason for the Y-connector usage suggestion is because this test eliminates the cartridge inter-channel interaction completely. By doing so, the procedure will only be feeding the same signal into the phono inputs along with any subsequent amplification so you will know the contribution of error/offset of the electronics.

I know you said your consultant is away so you can probably answer this later if you choose to. How did you guys get differential measurements from the XLR output with a ground referenced scope? (did you use differential probes? 2 pairs of single ended scope probes (4 probes) in differential mode?)

I wish you much success in searching for what you are asking. I hope you can find the answers you seek.
Dre