Direct drive/rim drive/idler drive vs. belt drive?

"Similarly if a manufacturer sends me several samples of a high cost three phase motor and says "do your best then bill me" the results can be pretty good."

I resemble that remark. Yuk. Yuk. ;)

I do have a habit of sending motors to Mark, and leaving the task open-ended. It can result in sticker shock, but the result can be stellar.

An external rotor three-phase eddy current motor that has has a 90W draw can be very inefficient, but the payback is in extreme smoothness, and also wonderful dynamics. So, I agree with others that a decent motor is key to high performance. In the case of Saskia, my turntable, the platter gains equivalent mass from this approach, too. The external rotor provides this to a point that when used with an idler it is the equal of a belt drive that has a platter that weighs several hundred pounds. The motor counts for a lot, but the platter can be further tuned to enhance inertia even more. Then, there is the spindle, bearing well and associated parts which also play important roles when it comes to ruble control, dynamic braking, evenness of play, etc. Again, if any aspect is neglected, performance suffers in one way or another.

Win

I've been working with a modified form of the old Empire table for some years now. It has a very powerful motor that has a lot of torque, runs at high speed and has a lot of flywheel action. Years ago I ran an electronics service center- while there I service all sorts of tables including the Technics Sl-1100, the SL1200 and the SP-10.

It is my opinion that the drive does not matter as long as it is robust and executed well. Weak drives just don't seem to do it and I have seen very little in the way of servo-controlled belt drives with weak motors that work right.

However, to my ear the platter pad has a far more profound artifact than the drive! Years ago I was lucky enough to obtain a platter pad that was truly neutral- and use it on a variety of 'tables. With it, the SP-10 sounds identical to a stock Empire and any number of older Pioneer belt drives (the platter pad is heavy so 'table needs a robust bearing to support it).

Without maintaining the platter pad's contribution in audition of all these drive systems, a huge variable is introduced that IMO/IME makes it impossible to ascribe a difference properly. The platter pad should reduce resonance in the platter; IOW the resonant signature of the resultant platter cannot be ignored!

Now it might be that someone here has been this careful- has anyone in auditioning all these different tables (Lenco, Technics, Garrard, Micro Seki for example) been able to keep the resonant signature of the various platters constant, as well as the durometer of the platter pad surfaces? If yes- differences might be ascribed to drive. If no- differences are probably not the drive at all, but the platter's resonant signature as the vibrations in the groove are decoded.

What I am saying here is that the needle playing the LP makes a physical sound and vibration that the LP itself reacts to. If the platter does not control that, you have a coloration. IMO/IME, 95% of table differences are this effect.

Good point, Ralph. Also, if you use this un-named but "very heavy" pad (I assume you mean "mat") on an SP10 or the like, it may have a negative effect on the performance of the drive system, since the servo mechanism was designed specifically for the mass of the stock SP10 platter + mat. Whereas the same mat might have a less deleterious effect on the performance of your Empire.

Hi,
all said sound fine, -- BUT there is clearly a difference between colouration and dynamics!

The platter material / mats / pads / and other damping are ALL colouration items (excluding some really heavy lead-loaded mats adding more mass)

The drive-line performance is an issue with dynamics / timing / rhythm etc. I don't think both should be just dumped into on pot so to speak.

Axel

Ralph,

Have you tried "record periphery rings"? It would appear to benefit warped lps, of which I have a number.

Your feedback would help me in considering same. I've already tweaked the mat and use a spindle weight. My table is a Dual 721 with robust DD motor. FWIW, speed has been rock steady (by strobe) with the 4 or so extra pounds added by "steel/polymer/steel sandwich + carbon fiber donut" platter mat and TTweights heavyweight brass spindle weight.