Direct Drive turntables

Dear Dertonarm: As is usual in almost all your posts you talk,talk,talk,... on different subjects where you use some times technical language or like in your last post in this thread what your thoughts/guessing are..

Your last post states: +++++ " as long as the record has any chance for a relative movement to the spin of the platter, there is no way to discuss speed stability, stylus drag or dd vs. belt/thread, idler wheel drive. " +++++

where is/are the controled tests that can confirm that movement of the record relative to the spin of the platter if we don't use some clamp mechanism? where we can be sure that that record movement even exist? with which TT platter build materials? with which cartridges? which kind of set up on those cartridges: VTF/VTA, etc.. ?, which differences between 33rpm and 45rpm? how affect the different recording velocities at which each record track was recorded? which differences are on the subject with 200gr/180grs/120grs Lp weights? where affect and how at out side grooves, middle ones an inner grooves? which TT mats were used ( if any ) on the controled tests? is there any " enviroment/stage " where with out a clamp mechanism there is no record movement? which one?

+++++ " there is no way to discuss speed stability, stylus drag or dd vs. belt/thread, idler wheel drive " +++++

why? because you say so?

IMHO your guessing is only that a guessing ( that can or can't be true. ) with out no foundation if you can't or don't answer at least all those questions with scientific controled tests that can speaks by it self.

I always use some clamp mechanism, from a simple clamp/dead weight to vacuum hold down system. Well, in the last few months I don't use any kind of clamp any more, either in my DD and BD TT's, with surprising results for the better. In all this time I don't detect any single problem that is related of what you posted.
Btw, any one of you can make the test in your system with out using any clamp tool looking for a related problem because no clamp ( movement record relative to spin of the platter. ).
You can find other kind of " problems " because no clamp but I seriously doubt you can find the " problem " that dertonarm put on the table.

Btw, somewhere in some thread I posted my " controled " ( not very scientific ones. ) tests about that cartridge drag with different TT's, different cartridges, different stylus shape, different VTF and even with one, two, three and four cartridges running at the same time: my conclusion was that I don't have to worry about.

Now, if you have all those controled tests then bring here and share with all of us. Honestly I hope you have it because that could be a great information where almost all of us will learn about.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

They are not as common because they are more expensive to do well these days as someone indicated early on.

I'm skeptical of any inherent benefits of DD to the average home record listener over other drive approaches. It ain't rocket science to get a table to spin at constant speed and there are lots of ways to do it cost effectively. ISolation from motor or other external vibrations is trickier.

For good sound, better to focus on matching a good cart to good arm and phono pre-amp optimally.

Well Raul, sure I am talking in my posts - otherwise they wouldn't exist - but certainly not to the length you are going to. What I have mentioned in my last post are issues and matters which should - due to their simplicity and plain objectivity of facts and their interrelations - be so obvious that they do not need discussion nor controlled tests the way you put it.
None of us has to re-invent the wheel. None has to proof again that our planet encircles the sun. In this audio world there is no such thing clear nor proven enough not to be questioned by some.
That you do not use any kind of clamp anymore - and many others do likely - is certainly not my problem nor does it proof or disapprove anything. Its just a personal preference based on your taste, preferences and the special individual matrix of your hearing.
Just like with everybody else's.
It all comes down to personal preferences and opinions which you have mentioned too again and again.
Hearing and the experience of "sound" in human brain (which is the place where it actually takes place...) is a most individual and not to be quantified nor qualified sensation.
My remarks about trying to come as close as possible to a point where platter and record do form one single mass was purely technical-wise.
The physical benefits in the playback process are so obvious that - sorry - this is far beyond any serious discussion from my point of view.
But of course, you will - and are most welcome to do so - as always have a different opinion. Fine with me.
Enjoy the long journey,
D.

Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " That you do not use any kind of clamp anymore.... " +++++

I don't posted to say any one is wrong or something, just like a " datum " but forget about it is not important as is the post subject.

++++ " be so obvious that they do not need discussion nor controlled tests the way you put it. " +++++

useless to follow: is so obvious!!!?????.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Mapman, Spinning a platter at an average speed of 33.3333 is very easy. In fact it is fairly easy to get the accuracy to 4 or even 5 decimal points (not that it matters much). The problem is making it constant at a microscopic level, or at least to a level below audibility. This part is very difficult and in some ways at least as difficult than rocket science.

Isolation from the motor is all about constant speed. Motors vibrate primarily because the torque they deliver is not constant. The uneven torque translates into speed instability and speed instability (even tiny amounts) translates into degraded sound.

My experience with turntable drive systems has convinced me that speed stability is one of the most important, and challenging parts of turntable design. I have to admit that this finding was surprising to me so I understand your skepticism.