How to accomodate a balanced only phono stage ?

Elizabeth, Keep your shirt on. Nothing I wrote was incorrect. And it may help the OP, if the OP is concerned with the details of this hobby. And most of us here are already nuts enough to be that way. On the other hand, your comment that cartridges do not have three-wire outputs may reflect a lack of understanding on your part. As others wrote, nearly all cartridges are inherently balanced devices, and the two sides of the coil deliver a balanced signal. What you are grounding in an SE phono stage is what would otherwise be the negative phase of the signal PLUS the shield on the cable, ALL going to chassis ground at the phono stage, typically.

I should have added that IF one does use an RCA cable to carry a balanced signal, then one must lift the chassis ground connection on the RCA jacks, for sure. Else, like Dave said, you will lose the negative half of the signal to ground. This equivalent to a 6db loss in signal strength.

I should have added that IF one does use an RCA cable to carry a balanced signal, then one must lift the chassis ground connection on the RCA jacks, for sure. Else, like Dave said, you will lose the negative half of the signal to ground. This equivalent to a 6db loss in signal strength.

Hi Lew,

That's not true in the case of a phono cartridge, as I indicated above. There would be a 6db loss in signal strength in the case of an actively driven balanced pair of signals, such as between powered components (that are not transformer coupled), but that is a different situation altogether.

And again, I suggest that you not refer to "losing the negative half of the signal." That would imply that half of the waveform, and the corresponding signal information, is lost, which as you probably realize is not what happens.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, Interesting point you make re not losing signal strength. That runs counter to my actual experience when I accidentally grounded one half of the signal in a full balanced set-up. But now that you say it (and now that I realize I knew it, and you are correct), I can think of another reason why I definitely lost at least 6db of signal strength until I un-grounded the 2nd of the two signal-carrying conductors. (Note I have avoided using the terms "positive" or "negative", which are merely conventions and could also be confusing.)

As to my statement regarding the "negative half of the signal", I know very well what is happening. I had just been criticized for being too pedantic, so I decided not to elaborate on that statement for fear of confusing someone. Perhaps my over-simplification could also be confusing, so thanks for mentioning it.

There is a long thread with digressions on this topic at

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1172373006&read&keyw&balanced&&st50

Gain is not lost in single-ended vs. balanced wiring of cartridge, as the voltage output of the cartridge is what it is in either scenario. Some state that dividing this voltage across the two phases of a balanced amp may reduce s/n ratio. Others believe this is off-set by the advantage of common mode noise rejection in a differential circuit. Others state that the reduced capacitance that the amp sees from the source in a balanced hook-up may be advantageous.

Dave, Lew, thanks.

I haven't yet taken the time to go through the thread Dave linked to. But I would expect that a factor that would in some cases be decisive regarding the advisability or inadvisability of using an rca-to-xlr adapter which grounds pin 3 (as opposed to an adapter cable which does not) is:

IF the phono stage and part or all of the subsequent signal path and components in the system are fully balanced designs, then using an adapter which grounds pin 3, in addition to ruining common mode noise rejection capability at the phono stage input, will result in the sacrifice of some of the key advantages of fully balanced design in those subsequent parts of the system. Including cancellation in those components of some forms of internally generated distortion, and, particularly in the case of the power amplifier, reduction of power supply-related noise.

Also, if the entire signal path is balanced, a considerable fraction of the amplifier's power capability (as much as 75%) will probably become unavailable.

It should be noted, though, that grounding pin 3 and thereby in effect making the subsequent parts of the system single-ended in those respects, will NOT degrade the common mode noise rejection capability of balanced interfaces that may be present at points in the signal path subsequent to the phono stage input.

Best regards,
-- Al