Albert Porters after market panzerholz plinths

dbCooper,
I am sorry to see the direction your thread has taken. One year ago, I visited Albert after hearing multiple top end tables(all belt drives in the 20,0000-30,000 range). I bought his wenge plinth/sp10mk2 table(Baltic Birch/Basswood) because it sounded better to me than any other I'd heard at a fraction of the price. Since then, I have bought two more of his plinths(the twin arm panzerholtz versions and they are sonically and functionally wonderful. I thoroughly believe the narrow profit margin ESP considering the labor innvolved. I have a mk2, mk3, and soon another mk3 to replace the mk2. Every arm cartridge combo I have tried sounds wonderful in these plinhs with no trace of rumble. This puts me firmly in the jlsemrad, Albert, and Lewm camp on this issue.
I respect Raul but I feel he's speaking more out of passion than objectivity here(Allnic may not be everyone's cup of tea but clearly not just awful).
Thank God college football is upon us. Their forums are also insane but at least on Saturday the money talks and BS walks.
Good luck in your pursuit db, my money's on panzerholtz and I highly recommend Albert's if you don't have the knowledge/ti
e to do it yourself.

Thanks for your response, DU. When I remarked about the difficulty of this hobby, it was more in fun than anything else. If in the end all of this were not subjective, there would be no fodder for these discussions. But I do have to agree with Jlsemrad in the sense that there DOES seem to be a "sound" associated with the best DD turntables that one either does or does not prefer. One can easily learn to hear through the tonearm and cartridge to discern that quality imparted by direct-drive (and for me idler-drive as well). And the plinth (or the no-plinth) is very much a part of that equation. As I mentioned to Raul, when I bought my first SP10 MK2, it came in a mediocre lightweight wood/MDF plinth. To me that sounded "gray", dull, lifeless, even though the pace of music was well recreated. Similarly, my Denon DP80 came to me in a Denon DK300 plinth, the best of the ones Denon made for that table. Like the Mk2, the DP80 in the DK300 was rather lifeless. The DP80 really came to life, however, in slate (and admittedly after an electrical restoration as well). I am not at all arguing that slate per se is any better than a well conceived wood plinth. Slate was just the easiest route for me, since I am no kind of woodworker and could not afford the best of the wood plinths.

My experiences with properly designed heavy plinths is all positive.

When well executed, I believe the primary function is to add enough mass to improve resonance control without killing dynamics. This is the tough part and art!

The net effect especially on turntables like the Garrard and Technics, which have so much torque, is to improve stability and reduce vibration enough allowing the front end of the system to function quietly and retain the drive and power of the original design.

This lowering of the noise floor while retaining the punch and drive of their original design, creates a rock solid foundation, which IMO was not understood in the original plinth designs. After you experience this improvement or upgrade, it is tough to go back. Also any comparison of the performance of a Garrard or Technics to another turntable without the proper base IMO is an invalid comparison. Of cource I am assuming either system is serviced and in top working condition.

Even the turntables I have owned with minimal or no plinths, the Kuzma XL, Verdiere and Walker understood the importance of mass.

The top Micro Seiki designs with minimal or no plinths had massive platters. One would think that if enough great designs have one thing in common-Mass- there must be something there.

My impression and experience in listening to light turntables is not positive. I have listened to both the Garrard and the Technics in minimal plinths and there is no contest. They don't perform!!

Dear friends: It is curios: all of you speak about the benefit of high mass and disagree with the non-plinth subject but; at least for what any of you posted here, no one of you already tested ( in the last three months ) a non-plinth version against the plinth fashion one in the same "" serviced system in top working condition "".

Btw, the platter mass in a BD TT design is a must and different on the DD needs. The Monaco is a today example of this.

The subject of plinth or no plinth, high mass or low mass, etc are important subjects that gives different quality perfromance but IMHO what really matters and makes " the difference " is the platter build material or the mat that is in " primary " touch with the LP: here it is the " secret " of different performance level.

Btw, mi position about Walker vs Technics is on the TT it self where IMHO and with all respect no one here can say that the Technics/Denon is better TT than the Walker.

I'm a DD oriented person but this does not means that we can make light statements about with out true validation.
A TT is an incomplete audio item that needs a tonearm/cartridge combination to shows its performance. The tonearm/cartridge combination IMHO and through many tests about makes a heavy difference in any comparison.

The same cartridge with the same tonearm in the same TT with the same wire/cable but in a different headshell performs different. Albert you can test it now that you finally own a headshell removable tonearm design.

No, I'm not talking with " passion " ( not even with the Allnic subject. ) but with objectivity through hundreds maybe thousands of TT/tonearm/cartridge tests. I can validate every single word I post here, usually I don't " speak " on subjects that I'm ignorant or that I can't validate or validated by first hand experiences.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

I don't see anything wrong with the statement that the Technics trounced the walker. The Walker is sold as a complete system/package (tonearm/table) and I am sure it is a fine table. There is no other choice for table/arm combo in this case so it had to be compared as it was. I am sure Albert put on his best cartridge and cables for both the Technics and Walker so in this case a fair comparison. Yes, not apples to apples but it could not be done in this case.

What the guy was trying to imply is that they (all of the people who were at the listening session)preferred the much cheaper technics table when compared to the "walker system" which cost a whole lot more hence it "trounced the Walker".

I guess "they" were speaking from "real" experience and there is nothing wrong conveying it t"the way they heard it". Ultimately, it is just an opinion and IMHO, and it is definitely VALID.