Where should I go next? Where are my weak links?

Hi Iramirez - I understand that a whole lot of audiophiles like subs, and I am sure the one you mention is a good one. I do not dispute that.

My point about subs is that if we are talking about unamplified, acoustically produced music, they are simply not necessary. With the exception of perhaps the very lowest organ pipes, and maybe a very few other cases, acoustically produced music simply doesn't go down to the frequencies that would require a sub.

In fact, subs always make acoustically produced music sound a little unnatural. Yes, I make that an absolute statement. I have heard a great many of them, in audio stores and at audio shows, and in people's home systems. In every single case, unamplified acoustically produced music sounded better (meaning in this case more life-like, or real) with the sub turned off. I have even convinced a couple of speaker designers at audio shows of this, using different orchestral and chamber music recordings. In fact, one of my favorite activities at audio shows is to find a salesman hawking some system or other and ranting about how great his subs are, and then putting on a recording of acoustic music and asking him to play it with the subs on, and then off. The latter always sounds better, in the unanimous opinion of everyone in the room, sometimes shockingly so. Honestly, this test has never failed yet.

Now I hasten to add that if we are talking electronically produced music, this is not always the case. Sometimes subs can help enhance that, though as others have said they are always difficult to integrate properly, even when one knows what they are doing. And of course, most audiophiles do listen to a great deal of electronically produced music.

I think nowadays that even acoustic instruments are so amplified electronically as a matter of course in jazz clubs, and even symphonic pops concerts, that many people, including audiophiles, have simply become accustomed to this sound, and expect to hear it, even though it is not natural. Some day when I buy a really good home theater system for movies and TV, it will most definitely have a sub. But it will be separate from my audio system, and never the twain shall meet.

02-26-12: Rauliruegas
Now, I can't see clear which your point. Are you trying to say that the Manley is a right amp for those speakers? or are you trying to diminish the impedance mistmatch between Manley and Zu? which your point?

... Trying to match electrical impedances between any other audio links but the amplifier/speakers always is important an almost all of us take care about: I repeat, which the difference with the amplifier/speaker impedanmce matching? why almost all do not care about? which is the explanation behind this audiophile behavior other than ignorance?

Hi Raul,

I'm not saying that the match is unimportant. Basically what I am saying is that it seems plausible to me that the speaker could be designed to sound its best when driven by a tube amp having significant output impedance, and it may not sound its best when driven by a solid state amp having near zero output impedance.

Speakers having relatively high sensitivity are often designed that way. See Atmasphere's paradigm paper for further background on that.

I certainly agree with you that using an amplifier having a 2 ohm output impedance with this speaker will result in a somewhat different frequency response than using a solid state amplifier having near zero output impedance, as the calculations in my previous post indicated. However, that does not necessarily mean that the frequency response when driven by the solid state amplifier is "better" or more neutral or more accurate, either subjectively or objectively.

The bottom line, putting aside subjective preferences, is what kind of amplifier the speaker was designed and intended to be used with. Some speakers are clearly designed to be used with solid state amplifiers, others are clearly designed to be used with tube amplifiers, and many others straddle the fence.

The likelihood that the Essence is designed to provide good results when used with a tube amplifier is given plausibility by the upwardly shelved top octave that I referred to (that measurement presumably having been taken with a solid state signal source), which will almost exactly cancel the top octave rolloff resulting from the interaction between the speaker impedance and the 2 ohm amplifier impedance. It is also given plausibility by the good sonic results that have been described by the OP and by the Stereophile reviewers, and by the fact that a lot of people successfully use high sensitivity speakers such as the Zu's with tube amps.

Regards,
-- Al

Dear Al: Thank's for the link, I already read it in the past. Ralph is one of the designers I have in high respect.

I know that only a few speaker designers made or make their designs to achieve high quality performance with out taking in count electronics/restrictions to handle it. I'm not a speaker designer but if I was one that's the way I will make my designs. Then if that design at the end needs SS electronics or tube ones this fact was only a result of the speaker self design and not because was oriented to this or that kind of electronics.

Al, for me the main differences between audio systems quality performance level are each one audio system: colorations and distortion levels and how it handle these distortions.

For almost everyone but me what we like is not the main subject when we evaluate an audio system quality level performance.
I know as I think you know too that we can like music through full colored audio systems but for me that's means almost nothing.
What have sense to me and what I already experienced is that always that I heard a " distortion free " audio system I always like it and any one like it too.

I almost always like it my system even when was full of colorations/distortions but through the years I learn and understand the specific weight that have those distortions/colorations in any quality level system performance so I worked about and I'm still working to achieve that elusive target " distortion free " system.

Each time distortions goes lower each time the system let me hear more music more " what's in the recording " and higher enjoyment.
I learned to have not my ears equalized to my system but to be aware on different level of distotions ( different kind. ) and not only in my system but in other audio systems.

Obviously is not enough to have a " distortion free " system but a well designed one. A well designed one/distortion free system IMHO always will sounds great and likes any one and not depend what we like or which one are our priorities.
If that well designed and distortion free system does not like us could be not because the system but because that's what is in the recordings.

IMHO a well designed and distortion free system is always faithful to the recording.

I don't care about each one subjectivity because audio subjectivity is always the " easy " way to finish a dialogue like this one when arguments from one side " disappear ".

What kind of subjectivity am I talking about?, something like this one:

+++++ " Any audiophile will agree that the most valuable thing they have with respect to their audio system is their own hearing. " ++++++
or what you already posted:

+++ W if you move that's what has importance " +++

or what other people post about frequently:

++++ " this is what I like... " +++++

and my main subject is not what I, you are any one else likes but what's wrong or not.

The speaker/amplifier electrical impedance match is only one of the critical issues why we can't achieve a " near perfect " quality performance in our each one audio systems.
Colorations and distortions means differences in frequency response, noise level and any kind of deviations for neutrality, means differences on tonal balance and means non-accurate system response.

Why almost all of us take care on room/system interaction, why we take care on room contioning?, certainly to achieve near neutral performance with a better tonal balance and more accurate performance.

If we analize the relationship between the different links in the audio system chain we can see that are at least two critical relationships that almost no one cares about:
phonolinestage output impedance and amplifier output impedance.
We all care about almost all other link's relationship ( matchin in between. ): cartridges and Suts, cartridges and phono stages, cartridge and tonearms, cables and length of those cables, etc, etc.
Well electrical impedance match between speakers and amplifiers has ( at least ) IMHO a critical importance that if we don't care about we can't achieve a better quality perfromance level and not only this but we can't know for sure which one is the " true " quality performance level of each one audio system.

For me the name of the game in our high end audio is: accuracy and neutrality that means: low colorations and low distortions.

Another example on how achieve a lowest distortions in almost any audio system is the topic that Learsfool " touch it ": subwoofers, I agree with him that acoustic music other than organs perhaps does not needs a sub but we have to think in what we heard through each one system where we listen trhough speakers that always have compromises and one of these compromise is the IMD that the speaker drivers generate.
IMHO, almost any audio system benefits and improves its quality level perfromance when the main speakers goes lower in its IMD value/response.
This lower speaker IMD is something that even a " deaf " man could hear, I'm not talking here about " numbers " but a simple fact: lower speaker IMD.

Here we can read something about:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Anyway, I know that my overall targets are different from other people ones but my best hope is that sooner or later you and other people take concience and action on what you and me are talking through our posts in this thread.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,
You seem to assume no one else has owned or listened to 'low distortion,low output impedance' and so called 'accurate' SS amplifier and ultimately found them inferior. Just because you find these types of amplifiers more neutral and accurate is merely your conclusion and simply nothing more.You`re quite condescending considering those who don`t share your conclusions as "ignorant".

It`s good you`ve found with works best for you, don`t be so smug with your attitude that you know what`s best for everyone else.I`ve heard many of the highly praised SS amps with ultra low distortion measurements and most did`nt sound very good to me(yep, had to use my ears,imagine that). I much prefer my current amplifier as it sounds far more realistic and natural. It`s silly to discount what others 'hear' as pleasing colorations. I could just as easily point out the deficiencies(they`re there) of the SS amps you prefer,but what`s the point? If you like that presentation that`s all that matters. Your opinion is no more informed than any others posted here. You`ve been posting the same doctrine for many years on audiogon, perhaps it`s you who needs to reconsider your narrow, dogmatic and redundant posts.

Charles1dad,

Thank you for your incredibly kind offer. I certainly would love to hear your amps. I bet we could learn quite a bit from hearing them in both systems. Before I got the Zu speakers I ran my Manleys on a pair of RBHs which sported a similar D'Appolito array as your Coincidents. They sounded glorious with the RBHs, but due to a lower efficiency I could only listen to fairly moderate sound levels. I imagine, very generally, that your Coincidents have a similar presentation as my RBHs, but with greater dynamics. The RBHs threw a very different soundstage than the Zu, very, very deep behind the speakers. The Zu are astoundingly dynamic in comparison--they really can startle you on the attack--and they present a very broad very wide soundstage. I don't know if you have ever heard your amps on a single driver speaker. I assure you that it is a peculiar experience. I think that you would enjoy listening to your system with my Zu Essences. I think that the differences would be enlightening to us both... I don't know how to contact you privately, but I'll peruse Audiogon systems and send you an email with my phone #.

Warm regards,

Ivan