MM Phono Input impedance change 47k to 100k ohms

With no disrespect to Raul, you just can't always go by what he says. He uses ADS speakers, that have always been lacking in the midrange, to somewhere where they blend with the treble. I've tried those speakers a short time in their day. A friend changed from ADS to other brands, after he heard a major improvement in music, that he says sounds real, and alive now, as it should, years ago. He doesn't miss them. A lot of us heard them at dealers in their day also. Maybe that is why Raul speaks so high of Empire cartridges. Plus there's the personal taste involved.

I've tried various Empire cartridges in their day, and can't recommend them. I also tried some again, after reading what Raul said, years later, on a total different system. They still have a bright unnatural characteristic, that is harsh and poor, on a well balanced system. When Empire was making those cartridges, they where selling speakers like these speakers that had serious midrange problem and other problems too. So it's hard to rely on results, that was done on a system that uses these speakers for a reference, that has problems like this, in both of these cases. Some said ADS speakers were good for masking poor gear flaws.

I sort of got volunteered into saying this, as many friends that read these forums, don't agree his results either. They are familiar with his equipment, and tried a lot of the cartridges he speaks about. We just want everyone to know a lot of variables are involved. And, we know he spent a lot of time, with good intentions.

I had this enjoyable Grace cartridge in the past, and traded it with a turntable (I believe). I ran it at 47k ohms from what I remember. If it needed a different load, I think I would remember.

Hello Hifitime,

They still have a bright unnatural characteristic, that is harsh and poor, on a well balanced system.

With all due respect,that doesn't sound like an Empire 4000dlll or an Empire 1000ze/x but as you said " plus there's personal taste involved".

What cartridge's do you like personally so we/I can get a feel for your taste in cartridges? If it's not a problem, would you mind letting us know your system?
This would be for reference not for any kind of attack.

Dear Gentlemans : Through the years I always ( time to time ) " think " things out of the " book " that's why I re-discover the MM/MI alternative and when I gone inside the alternative I made the same about the load impedance for these cartridges. Over the years too that time where I think and take actions in an non-orthodox way gives me some fails and some rewards, the MM/MI alternative is one of this rewards.

The Grace 9s different models shares the cartridge same motor and here you can read the FR at 100K with 80pf:

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/grace/f9.shtml

this is the response of those cartridges for CD-4 or NOT.

The Empire 4000 series was designed to run at 100K too and many other MM/MI cartridges. I tested several load impedance options with different cartridges even several cartridges that were designed for 47K and even these ones performs better at 100K.
Problem is that even on those times only a few phono stages came with 100K option where the 47K was and still is the standard but even knowing this standard I tested higher load values ( non-orthodox. ) and till today no one I know is running at 100K posted any kind of " anomalies " in the quality cartridge performance level.

I agree with Hifitime: no one has to belive in me what IMHO has to do is to test it to try it and decide about.

Btw, Elenkeinheimer you can try 100K and if you don't like it you just return to 47K: no big deal and remember that as critical is the MM/MI load impedance as critical is the MM/MI capacitance that must be mated in between.

Hifitime, certainly you can speak about ADS speakers but IMHO you can't speak in specific of my ADS loudspeakers not only because nothing of what you posted happen in mines but because you don't know maybe I can say: you don't even can imagine the quality performance level of my system. If in the future you could have the opportunity to live that experience IMHO you will be " heavy " surprised.

When I made and make " discoveries " that's because I don't believe in " standards " like that 47K till I prove to me that that standard is " right ".

There are almost no-rules about because as Lewm knows several times what in theory things have to be in practic/live does not happen and that theory can't be confirmed.

Audio and analog LP playbak in specific is terrible imperfect at least this is what I learned and I'm still learning.

That 47K sounds good does not means that other load impedances, as 100K , can't sounds better.

Finaly, each of our systems is different and more critical that that is that our music sound reproduction priorities are different too and that's why different opinions.

My advise is: test/try it always and decide.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul & Pryso, I certainly don't disagree with your comments about the potential benefits that can result from experimentation, and from making the design as flexible as possible.

However, the original post appeared to reflect an understanding that 100K loading is a necessity for best results with this cartridge. For the OP to make an informed choice about how to invest his time, effort, and perhaps money (if he were to have a technician do the work), it would seem appropriate to advise him that that is not necessarily the case, and that a possibility exists that the performance of the cartridge or the phono stage or both will be worse with that loading. That is what I and others attempted to do.

Regards,
-- Al

An additional point that occurs to me. Tics and pops contain a considerable amount of energy at ultrasonic frequencies (i.e., greater than 20 kHz). The increase in bandwidth that would occur with 100K loading, presumably to the 45 kHz number that is specified for that loading, may result in tics and pops becoming significantly more objectionable. That would be particularly true if the phono stage implements RIAA equalization in a feedback loop, rather than passively. Atmasphere, for one, has emphasized that point a number of times in the past.

Regards,
-- Al