Micro Seiki, or TW AC-1

I have no dog in this fight, other than that I'm sympatico with the OP because we share certain system attributes. I don't doubt Pani heard what he heard and will admit that the only time I've heard the AC table (I think it was the Black Knight) was courtesy of Jeff @ Highwater in show conditions. I think we'll all acknowledge that turntables at any level~ and here, we are talking about a pretty high level of performance~ will sound different from each other. My suggestion is that the OP contact Jeff when he is back from Rocky Mountain, and be candid about his interest in a used table. Take a trip to NY and hear the darn thing, presumably Jeff can set it up as well as anybody. (Ideally, he'd use a cartridge you are familiar with or willing to consider buying).
The Micro Seiki seems to be a little risky in trying to get support if you have problems, assuming the OP could source a good one without issues. The Platine- very cool table and one I'd certainly consider in this league if available in the States. It's been around a long time, and is still made.
Does that make sense? (I'm not encouraging abuse of a dealer here, which is why I suggested candor- Jeff, who I don't really know well, but have talked to a couple times, is one of the best folks in the business).

Let us address the myths espoused above -

I have a friend with a Micro Seiki. Wonderful table but it does need tweaking and labor - almost constantly. He has the table down well over 50% of the time as he waits for parts, etc. Finding parts are becoming an issue for him.

Utter rubbish - I know many micro owners from the 1500 up and they have run without issues for over 20 years.

I'm a little leary about heavily investing in a 25 y/o Micro Seiki, though they have a great reliability record, but with the company being defunct, one is left to a mercy of random suppliers, or DIY in case of malfunction

Replacing a motor and drive on a verdier or micro seiki is easier than trying to work through a direct drive motor board packed to the gunnels with obsolete chips.

my issue with them is the metal platter. the TW has a polymer platter that is warmer and faster that metal.

Poppycock - the speed of sound through solids is directly dependent on the Bulk Modulus and Shear Modulus. It is dependent on the stiffness, resistance to compression, and resistance to shearing. Polymers such as Delrin generally are significantly slower than metal.

TW's tried 150 different materials for the belt alone, just to get the sonic signature that he was looking for. you know that back in the '80's when micros were made, that didn't happen!

Thats because the Japanese did their homework and got it right first time. Do you realise the big micro's are thread drive, they dont use stretchy rubber bands like the Raven. They are far more speed stable. There is at least one member on this forum who dumped the top Raven Black Knight for a Micro.

Probably the biggest myth of all - "because I own it it must be good". This is the most common assumption on the forum.

My observations -
Dont own any of the above so I am not biased. I own a Final Audio Parthenon which I prefer to any of the above.
I have heard most of the decks mentioned, have 2 friends with SME 20's and one with Raven/Raven arm. Also have 2 friends with Technics SP10mk3's, 2 with L07D's.
The top 2 are as Syntax stated are the Platine Verdier ( when used with the ball insert option to ground the platter ) and the Micro Seiki 5000 - preferably with the ringy bell platter issue addressed. Either of these, provided they are well maintained and set up properly will stomp the Raven in speed, articulation, noise floor and provide a much more substantial foundation to the music. Both of them are legacy products that will last a lifetime and are easy to maintain.

Dear Maril555: +++++ " The reason, I want to make a change from DD TT to belt drive is just to try a different approach. " +++++

IMHO from that approach you can choose any decent BD alternatives out there and you will hear a different performance, not better but different.

MS is a " heavy " regarded unit in a wrong way because has no merits for it. It has a decent bearing with a decent Panasonic/Technics motor, power supply and control unit are very bad and needs to be rebuilded for it can achieve top performance, all its platters are way resonant and like all havy mass TTs ( vintage or toady units designs. ) are way colored because you can't control the heavy platter mass internal resonances when in movement. High mass TTs are very good for the " eyes " and for the audiophile " rookies " but not the best for real music lovers and persons that has a decent music sound knowledge level.

Your SP-10 could gives you a better performance in " naked " fashion, this is with out plinth.

I favor the Peterayer adivise on the SME 20/3 that even that is a BD design is not a heavy mass design and even that was not designed for the " eyes " has very good performance: accurate and neutral one, very low colorations. Same for the SME 30. These SME designs were always under-rated because are " ugly " to the eyes but IMHO are way better that almost all the units named here.

I think that sooner or latter we will learn that we have to pay for quality performance in TT and not like today where many people pay for: kilos/kilograms!!
Is here in audio high-end where the price of a kilogram of metal ( aluminum/steel and the like ) has a price higher of a kilogram of real gold!! Sometimes some of us shows or our ignorance or our stupidity or our wealthy status where no one of these characteristics has no relatrionship with quality music performance level trhough an audio system. Yes, as you see it I showed my ignorance on that subject because I own MS and HML BD designs that today I almost no use it often.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

And Syntax, let me just get everyone on the same page. Your mission in life is to bash a few brands and give your biased opinion about products you get deals on. It is well documented here so why don't you let it go. H I forget you can't. You have nothing better to do. Not even listen to music. I wonder why.

And Dgad, let me just get everyone on the same page. Your mission in life is to support brands and give your "enthusiastic" opinion about products you get deals on.
And both we know very well, that no matter what I write, you'll never get it, not in this life, nor in the next. And internet "documentation". Please, everyone with a normal working brain knows, to rate something you should have information from ALL sides. But "your enemy" is my enemy point of view is childish. Wake up baby, we are not in Russia where you are sent to Siberia for a different opinion.
Say hello to all other Fanboys but a Democracy has different rules. Didn't you realize that after all those years?

Maril555,

besides of following a church-approach if DD or BD is better or even Idler-Drive I may recommend the MS.
I have all drives and tested them very intensively. While the DD has some advantages a real Top Class Performance you reach with a well equipped big Micro-Seiki (BD) or an EMT 927 (Idler Drive). While the latter is very rare a fine MS-5000 is reachable. So why going for a new design rather than the masters of performance. Pls. forget the remarks some guys made on Mass-Turntables. I guess our friends have no even an idea what kind of performance these TTs are able to show in a good setting.