Direct drive vs belt vs rim vs idler arm

Viridian, you wrote:
"So......you listen to turntables professionally? Where can I apply for that job?"

sorry for my late reply. It was a kind of replic to all these guys who still believe that in the studios (so called professionals) they used pro-gear but these units could'nt be well designed or appropriate for us audiophiles. Maybe the biggest mistake ever made!

This is why some people still believe good idlers make noises only - the next biggest mistake.

I am using three other belt drives (MS and Continuum) and believe they sound terrific, not only because of the drive. I also loved my Nakamichi DD but to be very honest the best investment I ever made was my EMT R80 idler drive playing with a TSD 15 Anniversary via a Western Electric 618B SUT.

So maybe the job you are applying for is already booked, nevertheless if you are close by to Munich we could arrange an exchange, maybe I can learn something.

all the best

Richardkrebs
Yes I agree on moving away from which is best to what do we need.
Mosins previous posts on motors used in various idler drives for example would indicate to me that you cant even put Garrard 301/401's in the same camp as say the EMT 927 - I'm not saying one is better, more that the motor drives are completely different in motor characteristics, use of motor flywheels/eddy brakes, distribution of mass in the platter etc. So the fact that they are both idlers is all they have in common.

With regard to my stylus drag testing I wanted to test two things -
1. Does my TT deal effectively with stylus drag
2. How accurate is my KAB speed checker ( assuming the Timeline is more accurate ).
I have always set the speed with a record playing using the KAB speedstrobe.
Some folk on the forum reckoned they couldn't see stylus drag with the KAB.

So my test procedure was :
1. Set the speed with the KAB with no record playing.
2. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.
3. Reset the speed again with the KAB with the record playing tracking at 2g
4. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.

In both instances the TT passed the Timeline test and also confirmed that my KAB was accurate. The Timeline indicated no errors when using the KAB.
As for consistancy of stylus drag - presumably stylus drag has record groove modulation, stylus pressure, antiskate forces all contributing.
All I can say is with my TT the inner/outer grooves made no difference as verified with the Timeline and with the KAB, running the record as far as it would go, the KAB remain rock steady.

I suppose the next step might be to set the speed using a flute concerto and check whether you get through a Mahler Symphony or Reference Recordings Dafos on time without speed correction to quantity that differential.

The point I take from your Goldmund example is that you are suggesting that mass alone will not provide stability with a motor that simply doesn't have enough torque to start with.

Dev,
The Raven AC does not perform as well as the TT-101 in regards to 'stylus drag' yet seems to be better than the Transrotor appears from the Timeline video?

For what it's worth though......the sound of the Raven AC can be just as musically satisfying as the Victor.

Dover,
The only visual test for 'stylus drag' using the Timeline.....is to have the turntable operating with the steady stationary flash on the wall WITHOUT the arm lowered...and then to lower the arm and see if the flashing light moves at all.
Raising and lowering the arm several times whilst observing the action of the flashing light will confirm success or failure?

Halcro -
I think your test methodology would prove that only turntables with error speed correction built in will pass. We know that stylus drag exists and should always set speed with the stylus playing. The question then becomes how significant is stylus drag variation, should we speed correct, and if so how. Remember also that the timeline is only a sampling of 1 per revolution, what is happening in between that interval is unknown.
You could have Turntable A that has a much bigger variation when dropping the stylus than turntable B but has a better instantaneous speed correction. Which is better for sound reproduction ?
We also know that the natural recovery of AC motors and Brushless DC motors if the motor "slips" due to back emf and goes out of phase slightly that the recovery is different - some say the AC motor recovers sinusoidally whereas a DC motor tends to recover trapezoidally. Can you measure this ? What difference does it make to the sound ?
Lots of unknowns here.