2. analog
  3. 1393447894

Are there other Artisan Fidelity TT owners aorund?

So after being an audio hobbyist since my uncle got me going down this demented path some 17 years ago I finally purchased a TT. I had flirted with the idea for a very long time but honestly I've heard a number of TT's at shows and at buddies homes and none of them moved me. Now obviously many many variables are involved. Lets start with, was their TT setup correctly (superlatively).., I don't know. Was the arm/cartridge combination simpatico.., again, I don't know. Was the phono preamp just so-so or great and if it was great was the cartridge loaded correctly.., you get my drift.

So with my digital down through the years easily besting (to my ears) the analog I'd been privy to, I found no reason to spend the money required to involve myself with analog. My former Bidat easily dispatched a SOTA Cosmos Vacuum TT in a head to head listening session. Ditto for my former Dynavox Dynastation.., same with my AMR DP777...etc.

At Axpona last year I listened to the $170K Clearaudio TT along with about $85K worth of Pass Amplification and perhaps $200K worth of JM Labs speaker and cabling only to be more moved by the sound from the Playback Design MPD-5 in the same room.

Finally I realized the only way I would ever find out for myself would be to purchase my OWN TT and make sure it was expertly setup and dialed-in. I had a rare chance to purchase a latest-revision-pristine example of a Graaf GM70 Phono Preamplifier. I have a soft spot for Graaf as Mr. Mariani simply builds the finest gear I have laid ears on. So now I have this phono pre sitting in the box for a few months when I see a SP 10 MK III come up for sale in Agon. So, I threw caution to the wind and contacted Chris at Artisan Fidelity; after some conversation I hung up having just commissioned the building of a SP10 MKIII Next Gen TT.

I was happy for about a month then the fear started to creep in, "what have I done?". What if this thing SUCKS!!!! and my digital system which is very very very good if I do say so myself stomps it!

During the build I researched and read tons of user reviews (I don't really pay attention to so-called pro reviewers) on arms and cartridges. I finally settled (with a lot of talking to Chris and other friends and a lot of late night web searching) on the Kuzma 4 Point and the Ortofon MC Anna.

So, here we are today and I have had my TT for a little over 3 weeks now and I have about 150 - 160 hours on the rig. Early on it sounded ok, you know.., good but nothing special. I liked it but my digital was fully up to the task and in some cases much better :) (now I'm scared)

Ok, so fast forward to 100 hours.., ok, I think I'm starting to understand all this analog hype :) better and better. now we are at 150 hours.., the word SUBLIME comes to mind. The spaciousness, openness and natural continuity of the analog is addictive. The dynamics seem to go on forever along with a naturalness that is very difficult to put into words. I did purchase the Furutech Demag, the Destat II, a scale..., all the toys to go along with it :) Again, I wanted to know for myself and the only way to do that was to take the plunge.

So how does my digital hold up? Well, my well run-in long time AMR DP777 has NOTHING to be ashamed of. It sounds great and I can easily go from the TT to the DP without too much shock (the AMR guys are big vinyl heads and use vinyl as a reference when designing) BUT... when I have two equally well recorded pieces of music (Best of Eva Cassidy comes to mind or Diana Krall Live in Paris 24/96 vs 180g/45) as good as my digital sounds the SP10MK III simply walks away. Again the digital is not trodden underfoot and indeed 20 seconds of the digital and you will be into it fully, but the analog rig beguiles with its effervescent ease and infinite continuity of musical flow.

Ok, so to end this long synopses.., I am now deeply into analog and have been going to local used record stores and burning up my cc on Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds...etc.

The folks at Artisan Fidelity are the real deal and they built me a museum quality +180 pound Porsche Basalt Black TT/piece of art that sounds AMAZING!!!!

I also ordered a Bassocontinuo Apogeo rack for the table which should arrive in about 2 weeks. I am enjoying my foray into the land of analog!!!

THANKS CHRIS!!!!!!!
audiofun
sonofjim
557 posts
 
I should have more sense than to jump in on a flame war and I make no claim of engineering genious but here's my opinion.
I'm a big fan of the Mklll. I own two and have enjoyed them every day. One of the best designs ever? Probably. It's too bad they're so hard to find and not available to more people. When I first acquired one I reguarded it as a precious relic to not be blastphemed by further modification and I would understand anyone seeing it that way. My outlook has since changed though and I no longer put it on a pedestal. It is my turntable, a music machine. As good as it was when it was produced there is no creation out there that cannot be improved upon either with new materials, things overlooked or higher quality parts.
If the original Mklll was perfect why would we use after market plinths as Richard mentioned. Why do we strip away the factory chassis for direct mounting and rebuild the power supply using modern parts? One of my Mkllls has even had the sinister Krebs mod to no ill effect I can assure you. I don't think guys like Bill Thalman and Albert Porter would be on board with the mod if it was destroying national treasures. What of Chris Thornton's remarkable modifications to the venerable 301 in his Statement design? Is that desecration? I think it's improvement.
It's up to the individual owner to do what they see fit. If you find a classic car in your grandma's garage you can restore it to factory specs or chop it and hot rod the engine. Either approach is acceptable and neither destroys the car. I choose to optimize performance and not worry about whether I have a museum piece or not. I think the mods in question were well thought out and concerns over this oil have been blown out of proportion. I say do what you prefer and enjoy the music. The Mklll itself is near bullet proof.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
Sonofjim, I sort of agree with you and have basically said as much. Not that you accused me of saying the MK3 was perfect but since I started this diatribe; I don't believe that the MK3 is perfect, BUT I will say they got closer than most. My concern was that this applied oil was heretofore not mentioned. I wanted people to know what was actually being done to these machines; I feel I have succeeded. I also do not consider this a flame-war (at least I don't consider myself at war with anyone :) but rather an intelligent discourse and as we have both stated, to each their own. People now have the knowledge of what is being done to there MK3's.

I thought I was clear about this but perhaps not, I have no problem with mods on anything, (except molesting air cooled 911's :) I just happened to see the interior of one of these modded turntables. It was an oily mess and that is simply a fact.

So once more, this is not about an inanimate object being sacrosanct, it is about informing people of what is actually happening to their TT's, remember, before this thread, I don't think the core of this mod was public knowledge. I saw no evidence of anything else in the machine other than a plethora of oil slathered around. This is quite a bit different than installing Harmonix or Still Point footers or a better plinth or Hexfred diodes...etc.

Concerning the original Technics Chassis.., yeah, I don't know what they were thinking :) It's like they did all the heavy lifting and then got tired LOL. Or the "A" team finished the hard work and then handed off the final housing design to the "B" team.

One more time.., people now know the deal, to quote Richard himself.., "Caveat Emptor".
richardkrebs
422 posts
 
Audiofun.
As before, if this is my work, then clearly something has gone seriously wrong. There is no "plethora of oil slathered around" in my upgrade.
Where it is applied, it is done so for sound, pun intended, reasons.

There is NO oil applied to the power supply. You will recall, I told you this in private correspondence some time ago. If there is, then it is not my work or my agents have gone beyond my design. Something which I would find most surprising.

As I have said, I am waiting for the contact details of your friend so that I can accurately access the situation and will do my best to make it right.

Cheers.
audiofun OP
799 posts
 
Concerning the individual with the unit, if they wish you to address it I am sure they will reach out to you. I am not involved in anything they may or may not decide to do with the unit nor am I advising them one way or the other.

I only wrote what I experienced with your modification. If you say the PS does not have this oil applied then I certainly take you at your word and I stand corrected concerning the PS.
dover
2,243 posts
 
A few points on the subject of the Krebs mod -
The krebs website has a legal exclusion for any damage incurred in doing the mod. ( see my post above )
The mod is not reversible.
Richardkrebs has acknowledged in his post above that some SP10mk2's have had a breakdown in the motor glue
05-03-14: Richardkrebs
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled.
This would suggest that there is a risk of the motor glue breaking down over time after the owner has taken delivery.

There are a few other concerns :
05-03-14: Richardkrebs
one part of my upgrade is the targeted application of an organic oil. I can assure you, this oil does not harden, but does stop being sticky, after around 4 months. It then becomes stable and enjoys considerable longevity, it also stops smelling. I first used this material in my electrostatic EHT power supplies back in 1993. A recent check has confirmed that it has retained its elasticity and shows absolutely zero sign of any breakdown or tracking. It is being used as a dielectric in this supply, exposed to 5000 volts.
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled.
I have studied Physics, Chemistry, & Engineering at university and find it curious that one could conclude that if an oil remains stable in an EHT power supply then it would remain stable in a turntable DD motor. These are entirely different applications and have no correlation whatsoever in terms of how the oil performs.
05-11-14: Richardkrebs
in my view, Technics did not pay particular attention to the loop between platter and arm. This in the form of rigidity and resonance control....
My upgrade improves this situation by helping to control resonances in the motor chassis. In standard form it is quite resonant and flexible.
This change produces an immediate and unambiguous improvement.
This claim could be easily measured with simple test equipment such as an accelerometer and by putting a frequency sweep resonance through the TT with before and after the mod test results. I note there are no test results provided on the krebs site that support his claims.
05-11-14: Richardkrebs
There are a number of materials used in my upgrade, most of them man made. The organic material used is the same as that employed by Duelund in some of their products. Once dry it is stable and enduring.
Again, I find it curious that one would argue that if an organic oil is used in a capacitor, then it would be stable in an electric motor. These are entirely different applications and environments. It is unproven as to how long the product will remain stable in the field.
05-11-14: Richardkrebs
Firstly I will leave it to the growing number of industry leaders who are using my upgrade in their MK2 and Mk3 motors, to attest to the efficacy of my work.
Growing number of industry leaders. Richardkrebs, could you advise how many & who are they ?
05-11-14: Richardkrebs
Further while measurements are of great importance, we cannot listen to them. See my web site for unedited customer reviews.
Customers cannot post onto the krebs website. Selected customer comments have been posted by the website host, therefore the claim of "unedited" is erroneous.

I have heard SP10mk2 before and after the krebs mod and cannot hear any improvement. The sound is different, smoother and gluggy. To my ears it sounds worse. In the ET2 thread krebs agreed with this but claims that over time it will get better.

Richardkrebs, perhaps you could advise if the SP10mk2 I heard had the glue breakdown ?

As Audiofun points out, customers should be fully informed of any modifications and potential risks so that they can make an informed decision.
This information has not been provided thus far on the krebs website. In reading krebs description of the mods above, he still does not articulate precisely what has been done. It is not possible to assess the risks based on the paucity of information provided and therefore Audiofuns sage advice of CAVEAT EMPTOR should be taken on board.
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