BAT to BAT - What's Best?

John... whoa! that sure shed some light on things for me. I do trust your judgement. I do dig the mids I have now. Extremely enjoy the grand Ss too... one that can, envelope you at times depending upon the recording. there's not much of the sound the 5i makes with how it's configured presently, that I don't like... and of course it's in conjunction with the BAT vk500 which also emulates something of a tube sound but with more authority and strength.

I do appreciate the info on the "Super" as well. that was another notion. Perhaps a previous CJ might be more to my prefferences. Most of the tubes I have now will fit there as well.

Do all the CJs make a racket when the volume is adjusted? The new ones do. I dig the silent .5db volume increases of the BATs. Maybe the 51 is the ticket as I would hate to lose the midrange I enjoy now. I sure didn't care much for the CT6 I heard... or the 14 either. too solid statey... and both were with tube amps... the CT 6 (or maybe a 5, 7995.00) had the newest CJ 160 wpc? tube amp and some plannar speakers. Sure it was nice... but lacked body and warmth. Not worth my 19K for sure.

I'll make every effort to hear a 51se before I buy another pre. It makes sense... and there'd be no need for tube rolling with a vk51se... that's a big plus for me. i scare myself everytime I swap out tubes in my pre. thankfully, I've stumbled onto a really super mix of tubes now... so changing them out is no longer neceassary.

I'll definitely try to hear a 51se somehow or other.

Well Jim, from what I've read from you in the past, I think you would prefer your VK-5i. It is warmer than the VK-51SE. BAT in general is more dynamic and powerful than the CJ's and VAC's, I think the answer lies in the bigger power supplies. That said, the VK-51SE uses the 6H30 'Super-tube', which may or may not be super, depending on your cup 'o tea. There is no doubt that the 6H30 tube is more dynamic, powerful and just sounds larger than the 6922's, however, it's not for everyone. If you do not like the newer CJ's that use the 6H30, you may not like the newer BAT's that use them either. The older 6922 tube does have a sweeter midrange. The CJ Premier 16LS mk II I had was a 6922 based preamp, it was second from the top of the line (Art 2) and listed for around $8500 new. I didn't notice it making a racket when the volume was adjusted though.

The VK-51SE had better dynamics and bass than any preamp I've heard, period. Not just better than any tube preamp, but better than Krell, Levinson, Classe, Threshold or any SS contender. The VK-51SE midrange is definitely tubed, and best all SS preamps I've heard in this regard, but I have heard warmer, sweeter mid's in tubed preamps. However, the other tubed units don't have the rhythmic drive and power that I love from the BAT. The BAT is also the soundstage king. One thing that may interest you about BAT is that your VK-5i has 5881 tubes in the power supplies. BAT got away from tubes in the power supplies with the 50SE and then the 51SE. Well BAT is just releasing it's new preamps, VK-32SE, VK-52SE/Rex, the difference? Tubes are now back in the power supply.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.........

One current preamp that sounds like it may fit your budget and sonics, and fill your remote flexibility requirements is an Aesthetix Calypso. Have you considered this model? I would love to hear one, as it has garnered unbelieveable reviews from Stereophile and TAS. On top of that I've heard it's the real deal from those whose ears I trust. I have never heard anything negative about it's sonics. The only complaints are that it can be tough on tubes and tube rolling is not easy. At $4500 list price it probably cannot be beat for sound and flexibility. Many say that you have to spend twice the price to better it.

John

Owned more gear and cables than probably anyone on this site...I have come full circle and recommend Transparent! There is such a huge difference between there stuff and everything else that it's just sickly good!! Get some on loan and listen for yourself...that way you can avoid all the expense and heartache of trying everything else as I did!

John, the illuminations are super. I did see the newest BAT SS pre at their site... though nowhere else. Nada. Absolutely, warmth and a touch of tubeyness is my prefference in sound in general. For where I want dynamics, old school rock and so forth, I'm simply gonna use another smaller system.

the Stereophile review made mention of one disparaging note... component synergy. in ref to the Saturn Calypso. I agree it interests me a lot. A dealer told me it was a hit or miss item for many folks. Sort of supporting the Stereophile take.

I'd sure not mind hearing it too. A dealer is about 200 miles round trip from me... and the folks at Aesthetics said they maybe could help if getting over to the dealer wasn't happening for me.

Did you have the 51se with other amps besides the 600? that might could play a part too. I understand the 600 to be quite the dynamic SS amp... akin to Krell. the vk500 hasn't a bright or brittle bone in it's chunky little body. It has always sounded as the pre or proc feeding it... given my limited experience in putting other things in front of it. It seems to have sufficient transparency in that anything I do to my rig does come through as a noticeable change. but yeah, I'd as soon stay oriented a shade or so to the left of neutral.

the addition/replacement of some PCs and passive filter have moved me to very near the 'DNM' (dreaded neutral monster), and things have 'cleared' up considerably from the sometimes darker side of the scale my rig previously resided in.

Thanks to my now preffs for big band jazz and slow entrance to classical genres. Not a bad thing either. So I'm no longer looking for 'lush'... that phase is likely past. I just can't physically take a top end that is anything less than easily or sweetly rendered. It just hurts after a while. Reckon I've gotten to sensitive there being hard of seeing and all. I don't know. ..and I'm really trying to avoid doing another amp as well, with mine being balanced only, the field of representatives and sonic qualities I want, it seems the path is pretty narrow... especially if you add in my hamstrung wallet.

RE 5881s
I'm using Tung Sols in mine. Like 'em. A lot. I had no idea tubes weren't in the power supply circuit in the current BATs. Hmmm. Tubes there definitiely would seem to provide a tameing aspect on the Dynamics.

Dave
thanks for the Transparent thoughts. lol. I believe I'm set for a time however.

No, I only had the 51SE with a BAT VK-600SE amp, so synergy could have had something to do with it. Though I had a pair of Clayton M-100 monblocks when I had my VK-31SE, and thought the BAT family sound was still there.

Yes, you could say from 1999-2007 BAT had taken the tubes out of their power supplies, now, as of 2007, they are going back to tubes in the power supply. They showed the new models at the CES, and my dealer tells me they should be shipping shortly.

Well component sysnergy is an issue with any item, including the VAC preamp you were talking about trying. FWIW, the Calypso is much less $$$ than the VAC, so I thought it worth mentioning. I'll have to re-read the whole article, as I must have missed Mikey's synergy complaint. The only compliant I saw from Mikey was in regards to the manual, summed up in his conclusion:

"Conclusion
Was I impressed by Jim White's Aesthetix Saturn Calypso? Damn straight I was. Used with far more expensive gear, it held its own and then some, and had one of the best-balanced sounds of any audio component I've come across at any price. At $4500 it's no budget product, but it's a high-performance component in every sense of the term, and something you can stick in the face of any cynic who thinks high-end audio has become a ripoff. Whatever the Calypso's sonic shortcomings might be, they're so well hidden that you'll discover them only by changing out the Calypso for whatever might prove to be better. My biggest complaint was the manual's virtually blank specifications page. The purchaser of a high-performance audio product deserves better documentation.

The Aesthetix Saturn Calypso was one of the most enjoyable, musically satisfying preamplifiers I have had the pleasure of reviewing. Your $4500 buys you a beautifully built, smartly designed, crisply functioning, versatile, and, most important, sonically brilliant preamplifier. I could live with it happily ever after. You could spend a great deal more and get more for your money, but you're just as likely to get less—that's how good the Saturn Calypso is. "

Sounds like it would be worth a trip to investigate anyway. Even if just to see if the remote's flexibility suits your needs.

So, if I understand this right, you are very happy with the sound of the VK-5i, but are just looking for more flexibility with the remote, is this correct? If so, I'll stick by my reco of the Calypso, or, if you have the dough, you may be interested in one of the newer BAT's with the tubes back in the power supply again. The least expensive new model with more remote flexibility than your VK-5i is the VK-32SE which has a list price of $7995 w/ remote.