James Randi vs. Anjou Pear - once and for all

i would challenge randi, provided i could design the experiment and select the components as well as the sources. otherwise, anyone can design an experiment to increase the probability of a desired result.

Brizonbiovizier, why don't you take the Randi challenge? What if you heard a difference? Of course, you could just randomly say different or not different and assure you fulfilled your prior conception. This is the fallacy of DBTs. The real question is whether most people can hear a difference in a test where people could not lie to fulfill the hypothesis. Were a random sample of 1500 to have enough who heard a difference to achieve statistical significance, we would reject the null hypothesis that people don't hear a difference. This would be good research not Randi's game.

Shadorne
Wire geometry will most affect highs.

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe all cables sound the same or not. Take your pick.

If they sound different, then arguing about how big the differences are is just silly. A subtle difference to you may be a bigger difference to someone else. Also, unless you have listened to and compared many different cables to each other, you have no basis of knowledge on the subject.

Which leads us right back to the fallacy of the double blind test where the listener's ability to hear is hindered by the unnatural requirements of the test itself. The only thing those tests prove is how bad the testing methodology is at actually discovering the truth.

I have always felt that a long term double blind test that allowed a listener to enjoy music through his own system comfortably over time, would have a much better chance of actually meaning something. The problem is that it is just not practical to set up.

If you can't hear a difference between various cable designs, you probably shouldn't be in audio, just as people who are color-blind probably shouldn't be artists or traffic light designers. If you can't hear the differences, no problem. I've got a friend who cannot hear even the most obvious differences between cables. He admits this, and consequently, he doesn't drop any cash on audiophile equipment. Good for him! However, he doesn't sit there and argue with us about the non-existence of the effects we others hear clearly and decisively, but that he cannot. He recognizes his limitations and doesn't demand we all agree with his impressions.

Why, then, do so many of those who cannot hear any differences feel the need (the overwhelming and incessant need, apparently) to criticize others who CAN hear these differences? Does that mean those who can hear the differences should all give up what we can appreciate because others can't hear like we can? If you can't hear the difference, don't spend your cash. Like my friend. It's that simple.

But I think what is REALLY going on here is certain folks are insanely jealous of others' ears or wallets, or both, and so try to constantly attack those who can appreciate these subtleties. How juvenile and pathetic!

The only thing more pathetic is when folks like James Randi make absolutely moronic assertions in print, and then find legions of similar 'deep thinkers' who will blindly agree, all because Randi said it (so it MUST be true, right?) But having had first-hand experience with Randi and his Shock-Troopers previously (I was legal counselor to an OEM who suffered from Randi's rantings previously), I can assure you these clowns will never agree to any testing that isn't ridiculously slanted and pre-approved to yield results consistent with Randi's assertions. He'll only agree to use HIS system under HIS control, which said system is not even close to audiophile grade by any measure. (I believe this is what John Atkinson of "Stereophile" also mentioned in dealing with Randi and his minions regarding their 'million dollar challenge'.) I was shocked by all this, frankly. I expected Randi and his supporters to be all about honesty, logic and science. Scientists? Hardly! More like money-grubbing publicity seekers who cannot admit they are wrong.

Sadly, Randi and his crew are acting just like Uri Geller did on Carson when Randi skewered that fraud so beautifully by taking away his 'playing field' (i.e., the pre-stressed spoons and forks Geller used to dupe his willing audiences) and substituting normal, non-stressed utensils that Mr. Geller was unable to 'bend with his awesome mind powers'. That was a GREAT moment for Randi! (BTW: I was a HUGE fan of the 'Amazing Randi' until I got involved in the legal matter noted above and saw another side to his persona.) Why spoil such a wonderful image and legacy by resorting to exactly the same 'playing field' tricks Geller did? Randi is now nothing more than a successful hypocrite, one who simply insures he cannot lose his 'challenge' because he now does what Geller did: he controls the 'playing field' so that reality cannot be used to destroy his own baseless claims.

How sad!

I have never heard the 'Anjou' cables. I don't waste my money on such apparently over-priced designs that almost invariably sound inferior to great DIY designs that use sound electrical theory and application. But that doesn't mean I will criticize the buyers who DO find such products beneficial. I recently heard the Transparent Reference Opus (?) speaker cables that retail for --gasp!-- $35,000.00/pr!! At first I thought the dealer's cleaning person had left out a pair of cannister vacuums behind the speakers, but then was informed what they really were. When the dealer said the price of the Transparent cables I had to do a double-take. Yes, that's an absolutely ridiculous price, especially for a speaker cable that I bet I could beat with a pair of custom-built cables costing less than $50.00! But does that mean I should attack the dealers, the buyers, and Transparent Audio for what I believe to be a tremendous waste of money? (The dealer told me had sold SIX pairs in just a few weeks, BTW!)

This is America, folks. If people want to waste their hard-earned cash on such products, let them. If they think they heard a $34k difference, I'm not going to tell them otherwise. I didn't, but it's not my money or purchase decision. And I'm certainly not going to let petty jealousy color my view of a purchase decision made by someone else. If they've got ludicrous amounts of cash to burn on such things, good for them!

But to argue there is no sonic difference discernible between cables, regardless of price, is just pure non-sense

Every cable has its own unique sonic signature and, as Robert Stein is fond of saying, "... has the possibility of being the perfect cable in YOUR unique and individual set-up." This simple fact refutes Randi, period. We ALL know this is true, that no two different cable designs sound exactly alike (if they do, the system you're listening to is very, very low rez --apparently like Randi's! A Kenner "Close-'N'-Play", perhaps?) If no two different cable designs sound exactly alike, then price and preference cannot ever be criticized intrinsically, as 'there is no disputing taste'. This is simple logic. You may discuss your personal preference, but everybody is entitled to their own impressions and feelings --and purchasing decisions! And if well-heeled folks want to throw gobs of hard-earned (or inhherited) cash after something we might feel is utterly silly or wasteful, let them. That's what freedom is all about, isn't it?

But Randi isn't about logic or freedom, he's all about Randi --and staying 'relevant' and more importantly, 'solvent'. And if that requires him to level spurious accusations against developers of cutting-edge hi-fi products to remain 'relevant', it shows how low these 'celebrities' will stoop to stay in the all important 'public eye'. And that's saddening. Especially from a guy like Randi, that we all should expect a little more from than merely pandering to those unhappy and jealous types who want everyone brought down to their level of mediocrity.

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe all cables sound the same or not. Take your pick.

*sigh* yes some people think that way...that it has to be a choice that there is no gray area. It helps to understand that small differences exist but that these differences are just simply too small to be relevant in the vast majority of cases. Extreme geometries can roll off the highs slightly (separating +/- wires by great distances such as one foot such as in a loose dangling ribbon or wires...of course long runs are needed to make the effect audible)