about to jump into the power cord foray

As usual, Blindjim, you see quite well...
Interesting that you also found the efficaciousness of grouped cables. Yes, it's tougher to gather all those "loose ends" via second hand purchases.

Your comment is spot on: "The system’s cabling can be both it’s limiting, and enhancing factors." The voice of someone who has experienced it.

Conducting proper tests of cables as suites is not impossible for the average man. Yes, it ties up some cash in the interim. I had $4k extra tied up in used cables (beyond the price of what I had put into my current cabling) when I was comparing them. That's not chump change, but neither is it a home wrecking amount. I have been an audiophile for more than a quarter century, so it was commeasurate to my experience and budget. I knew that once the comparisons were over I would liquidate the cables and recover nearly all my money. The price paid to conduct the tests was marginal, well worth it, and in the end I wound up with a slightly less expensive brand and recovered some of the costs of the prior set! When I did comparisons, I sold off the loser and moved on to the next. Financial limitations restricted me to comparing only two sets at a time, but that was enough. After several rounds I knew far better what appealed to me in a cable design - one of the most enjoyable for me was one that I have not reviewed, Harmonic Technology. It's sound is similar to the Wire World Cables that were just posted in my review a couple days ago on Dagogo.com. (They also have a striking similarity in design - use of larger numbers of small Gauge conductors to achieve a larger total Gauge, which I feel is more than coincidence).

The other factors are time and inconvenience; as a hobby many want to simply sit and listen, not chase wires, conduct deals, run the comparisons, and then sell the unwanted cables. It did become a pain having to work all the deals to pull all the used cables together. For those who are not up to that I will not call it laziness. However, if one wants to learn a great deal, push their rig to the limit, etc. then it is necessary (unless you purchase from an audio shop and let them outfit you). But, just as there are tightwads, there are also lazy people. Between the two, most are not willing to actually DO what it takes to get the job of comparisons done. I'm not hacking on anyone! It's just the reality of it.

I don't put in any significant time/money at all on hobbies/activities I'm not deeply passionate about, and I don't expect others to either. So in those areas I'm cheap and lazy. i.e. Sports clothing; I don't spend a penny beyond shoes and discounted jackets, cheap sweat pants for winter, etc. for running outside. I am a casual jogger, not a hard core runner. I'm cheap with money and uninterested in pushing to new levels of distance, intensity on runs. So what? We all have our prioreties and marginal activities. I can say I'm a "runner" but even though I do it consistently, when it comes down to it, I'm not a "runner's runner".

Similar, I begrudge no one to take the title "audiophile"; we all want the community to grow. But, being a casual listener is a far cry from someone who's trading gear, running tests, etc. for self-education on component matching, cables, syngergy, etc. Someone who's doing years of that is going to gain a lot of hands on experience. That's just the way it is. And along the way the once very strongly held beliefs will change quite a bit from their experiences, a maturing process.

You are absolutely correct about even "sibling" cables being different enough to make purchasing decisions complicated even though buying one brand.

If the universe of cables is seen as a frustration, since finding the perfect cable can seem impossible, take heart, people, because that same sea of wire is also your opportunity! It's a tremendous blessing that so many affordable cables from so many manufacturers are floating around. Anyone, at any price point can do the comparisons for themselves. One caveat; I have said consistently that the nuances in cables begin to reveal themselves on rigs of at least $25-$30K on up. This is not elitism, it's practicality; it takes a certain level of gear to lay out the intricacies of cables. On rigs of $75- $100K these things are usually apparent. It's just mechanically the way it works. It's crass to put dollar signs on it, but it's a realistic, practical gauge that's born out countless times, and those who have heard very high end gear know it.

I have not made a final decision on whether proper cable selection is dependent on the genre of one's system (i.e. low powered SET amps with high efficiency speakers, or full range speakers with high power tube or solid state). I must study that, hopefully in the near future by hands on experimentation. I was surprised to find that David Salz of Wire World does not voice his cables with a true full range system, but concentrates on the midrange, knowing that with his design if the midrange is correct, the full spectrum will be correct. From the sound of his cables I cannot argue with his method.

I have learned something surprising, which was not anticipated - that just as certain box components appeal to me, certain cables appeal to me, and I prefer them on ANY system to date. At this point, it seems that when a particular brand of cables appeals to me, it is universal and not subject to the normally expected "system synergy" idea. I did not expect that. Also, consistently, cables which do not appeal to me sonically are less enjoyable on any rig. I do not believe I would have found that out if I had not pursued testing sets of cables. In a mixture how can one isolate the pleasing sound of a single wire? Years ago I would never have dreamed that I would say I prefer certain cables no matter the selection of components. It is happening now in my reviews, and I will watch that dynamic carefully to see if/how long it holds up with different electronics.

So, comparing sets of cables has a tremendous benefit for the person who really is keen on learning and pushing their system to the "brink of perfection"!

Wow, I've nearly written a book here; I need to step away and get back to listening and writing. :)

Douglas, I'll try to answer a few of your points. You're obviously a very intelligent man going by your thought out responses, but I have to take up a couple of issues.

1. You ask about my system; well it's what I'd describe as budget - Cambridge cd player, NAD amp, B&W 602 speakers and monster cable - all up less that the $4K you had tied up in unused cables. I hope to keep adding to it, but at the moment it's all I can afford.

2. You made the statement "but personal name calling is not good", yet you keep referring to anyone who wont spend $1000's and hours doing exhaustive tests as 'cheapskates'. I don't know what your income and commitments are, but believe me with a mortgage and two young boys, $3000 is all I can afford on a system right now, so spending big $$$ just to test cables is simply out of the question. It's nothing about being 'tight' or a 'cheapskate'.

3. Those of us who don't have the time and/or cash to do exhaustive tests of cables/components still have the right to make educated comment and opinion on the subject, based on our own experiences, education and of course reading; that's what these forums are for. If I want to buy a new digital camera, I can't go and test every single camera available; that's why we have review magazines and websites.

4. Yes, high prices for any consumer item that claims amazing results make me suspicious. I adhere firmly to the 'law of diminishing returns' on just about everything you can buy these days. If two items claim to do much the same thing (eg good quality IC's), but one costs $100 and one costs $1000, as a consumer I want to know why the latter costs 10x the former; is it really that much better, or is a lot of the price due to low production, expensive but un-necessary exotic materials, or maintaining a company's "status" as high-end? I'd love a real Rolex, but I know it wont keep time better or last longer than my Seiko; I'd be buying because it's a Rolex, not because it's a watch.

In CD playback via an amp, cables and speakers, there has to be a theoretical ceiling where playback exactly matches the original recording. The quality of most well-made consumer hifi these days (eg Cambridge, Naim, Cyrus, Marantz etc) means even midrange systems would be reaching very close to that ceiling, and spending twice as much on cables or components may only achieve another 1 or 2% improvement. That's why people like me and Musicnoise urge caution when A'goner's ask the merits of some of these high-priced IC's and PC's; it can be a LOT of money to spend on an item that may make little or no improvement, and may not be easily returned or resold (certainly the case here in Australia).

5. I simply don't know what you mean by "the sound of an electron". My vague memory of high school physics tells me that an electron is a negatively charged particle that usually exists in an electron 'cloud' around an atom's nucleus. The flow of these electrons from one atom to the next can result in energy release - heat, sound or light, depending on the situation - but does an electron have it's own sound? I don't know, do they have their own color or temperature? I don't know that either, but I'd be asking and trusting a physicist for that, because true scientists use rigorous testing before they state something as fact, something that marketing people don't have to do.

That said, I do love the debates some threads start!

Guesses and conjecture are no substitute for experience, and no, "midrange" systems do not get you anywhere near the ideal ime.

Carl109

I don’t think DS was picking or pointing to anyone specifically.

I don’t see anything wrong with your priorities or the amount of money you have into your system. Not at all. That’s why I recommended commensurate power cords from several outfits which may yield you some greater level of performance.

I guess being in Australia can pose some added issues in availability & expense, regarding trying various items, be they cables or components for that matter.

True too is the point of diminishing returns. It’s a floating point however. It seems to travel about in accordance with the price point of the overall system too. Years ago in my first few efforts I found wires at and beyond just a few hundred dollars did not provide me much betterment at all. Sure some changes were apparent, but little bettering was evident… in a system with BW 602, and 604’s. in fact the 600 series of BW were quite forgiving speakers and many sources worked ok there. The power was from my still in use Sony es HT receiver.

Moving up the food chain to the 9NT’s… things began to change. By then I had tried BK 220 Ref amp, and Krell KAV 250. Still using the rec as a preamp. About this time wires began to matter a lot more. Lots of things began to matter a lot more… not just the wires either.

I tried various other sources, and processors, still holding onto the notion wires weren’t the issue. Moved onto the Monitor gold 60’s too. Things still weren’t near satisfactory though. It was about then I found this site.

All the clamor here about system matching, power conditioning, cabling, and so forth astounded me. I thought to myself, as so many opinions were vastly apart from my own “Am I the only one right here, or am I missing out on something important?” Feeling my notions were in the minority, I figured to give credence to opinions outside my own… and just try some of them. Still prejudiced on many accounts, I did just that and began with cabling. Power cords to be exact. Enter Voodoo Cables.

I was sincerely moved by that experience. Seeing for myself what can happen to the rigs sound by simply adding a cord here or there. It was and still remains my only regret… that I did not possess more open a perspective. Had I then, perhaps I wouldn’t have sold off everything I owned then… but it is what it is. Just another lesson. In the end it always works out and where I’m at now is much better. It could have happened a mite quicker though… perhaps.

As my confabulous conglomeration of componentry has grown my current point of diminishing returns seems to reside, in regard to cabling, around the $1K +/- retail mark. Though this is my current exp. It’s not cast into stone either. There are some wires that over achieve. If they are right for this system or that. Or, more appropriately I suspect, for this or that person’s tastes, is the usual query.

The answer will always be, “Try it and see for yourself.” I’m a big proponent of getting in where you fit in. How much one spends is optional always. I’ve heard stuff at dealerships which cost many times the value of my own rig, and I wouldn’t buy them with Doug’s money… and surely not how they were set up.

Like the Flatlanders tune… Now it’s now again. It’s the set up more so than the dollars being laid down… and that’s where the finer art (if there is such a thing) in a systems building, rests. Isolation. Power conditioning. Cabling. Acoustical treatments. Not solely the components.

One of my deals can be had for about $1500 total. I’ve no problems listening to it at all. I do on a daily basis. It doesn’t take a lot of $$$ to have a very enjoyable outfit, just an open mind, and some attention to otherwise neglected peripherals.

Finding some folks in your area with whom you can swap cables and ideas will help immensely. I just borrowed some ic’s from a friend a few states away to try out, and sent him a pair of mine too so he could do likewise. That just cost shipping to and fro. Hard to beat that deal. A dealership might well assist you as well. Or simply sticking to popular brands so resale doesn’t pose a tremendous issue can reveal good results too.

There’s no time frame, no number of products which has to be encountered, and no specified dollar amount which needs be cast into a construct, for one to become either serious or involved.

My own constraints are purely fiduciary. If I ever hit that ‘red neck’ retirement (lottery) some Saturday night, one of my first thing to do is travel. Travel to here and there to see as many different systems and components as I can. In the end I fear, it won’t matter much aside from the fun of the travel itself, only having the items in my house will actually tell the tale.

… and yeah… then I’ll spend a lot of money most likely…. ‘just cause I could.

Good luck.

Concur. The resolution of the system is critical in terms of the need for higher quality cables. For example, when I was using B&W 804S speakers, I could get away with bettercables.com cables (and they sounded good) but when I moved up to B&W 803D they sounded horrible and were replaced in short order. So, essentially, be happy if you have a lower resolution system as you can get away cheap on cables (I know my wallet wishes I would have stuck with the 804S :))