about to jump into the power cord foray

Douglas, I'll try to answer a few of your points. You're obviously a very intelligent man going by your thought out responses, but I have to take up a couple of issues.

1. You ask about my system; well it's what I'd describe as budget - Cambridge cd player, NAD amp, B&W 602 speakers and monster cable - all up less that the $4K you had tied up in unused cables. I hope to keep adding to it, but at the moment it's all I can afford.

2. You made the statement "but personal name calling is not good", yet you keep referring to anyone who wont spend $1000's and hours doing exhaustive tests as 'cheapskates'. I don't know what your income and commitments are, but believe me with a mortgage and two young boys, $3000 is all I can afford on a system right now, so spending big $$$ just to test cables is simply out of the question. It's nothing about being 'tight' or a 'cheapskate'.

3. Those of us who don't have the time and/or cash to do exhaustive tests of cables/components still have the right to make educated comment and opinion on the subject, based on our own experiences, education and of course reading; that's what these forums are for. If I want to buy a new digital camera, I can't go and test every single camera available; that's why we have review magazines and websites.

4. Yes, high prices for any consumer item that claims amazing results make me suspicious. I adhere firmly to the 'law of diminishing returns' on just about everything you can buy these days. If two items claim to do much the same thing (eg good quality IC's), but one costs $100 and one costs $1000, as a consumer I want to know why the latter costs 10x the former; is it really that much better, or is a lot of the price due to low production, expensive but un-necessary exotic materials, or maintaining a company's "status" as high-end? I'd love a real Rolex, but I know it wont keep time better or last longer than my Seiko; I'd be buying because it's a Rolex, not because it's a watch.

In CD playback via an amp, cables and speakers, there has to be a theoretical ceiling where playback exactly matches the original recording. The quality of most well-made consumer hifi these days (eg Cambridge, Naim, Cyrus, Marantz etc) means even midrange systems would be reaching very close to that ceiling, and spending twice as much on cables or components may only achieve another 1 or 2% improvement. That's why people like me and Musicnoise urge caution when A'goner's ask the merits of some of these high-priced IC's and PC's; it can be a LOT of money to spend on an item that may make little or no improvement, and may not be easily returned or resold (certainly the case here in Australia).

5. I simply don't know what you mean by "the sound of an electron". My vague memory of high school physics tells me that an electron is a negatively charged particle that usually exists in an electron 'cloud' around an atom's nucleus. The flow of these electrons from one atom to the next can result in energy release - heat, sound or light, depending on the situation - but does an electron have it's own sound? I don't know, do they have their own color or temperature? I don't know that either, but I'd be asking and trusting a physicist for that, because true scientists use rigorous testing before they state something as fact, something that marketing people don't have to do.

That said, I do love the debates some threads start!

Guesses and conjecture are no substitute for experience, and no, "midrange" systems do not get you anywhere near the ideal ime.

Carl109

I don’t think DS was picking or pointing to anyone specifically.

I don’t see anything wrong with your priorities or the amount of money you have into your system. Not at all. That’s why I recommended commensurate power cords from several outfits which may yield you some greater level of performance.

I guess being in Australia can pose some added issues in availability & expense, regarding trying various items, be they cables or components for that matter.

True too is the point of diminishing returns. It’s a floating point however. It seems to travel about in accordance with the price point of the overall system too. Years ago in my first few efforts I found wires at and beyond just a few hundred dollars did not provide me much betterment at all. Sure some changes were apparent, but little bettering was evident… in a system with BW 602, and 604’s. in fact the 600 series of BW were quite forgiving speakers and many sources worked ok there. The power was from my still in use Sony es HT receiver.

Moving up the food chain to the 9NT’s… things began to change. By then I had tried BK 220 Ref amp, and Krell KAV 250. Still using the rec as a preamp. About this time wires began to matter a lot more. Lots of things began to matter a lot more… not just the wires either.

I tried various other sources, and processors, still holding onto the notion wires weren’t the issue. Moved onto the Monitor gold 60’s too. Things still weren’t near satisfactory though. It was about then I found this site.

All the clamor here about system matching, power conditioning, cabling, and so forth astounded me. I thought to myself, as so many opinions were vastly apart from my own “Am I the only one right here, or am I missing out on something important?” Feeling my notions were in the minority, I figured to give credence to opinions outside my own… and just try some of them. Still prejudiced on many accounts, I did just that and began with cabling. Power cords to be exact. Enter Voodoo Cables.

I was sincerely moved by that experience. Seeing for myself what can happen to the rigs sound by simply adding a cord here or there. It was and still remains my only regret… that I did not possess more open a perspective. Had I then, perhaps I wouldn’t have sold off everything I owned then… but it is what it is. Just another lesson. In the end it always works out and where I’m at now is much better. It could have happened a mite quicker though… perhaps.

As my confabulous conglomeration of componentry has grown my current point of diminishing returns seems to reside, in regard to cabling, around the $1K +/- retail mark. Though this is my current exp. It’s not cast into stone either. There are some wires that over achieve. If they are right for this system or that. Or, more appropriately I suspect, for this or that person’s tastes, is the usual query.

The answer will always be, “Try it and see for yourself.” I’m a big proponent of getting in where you fit in. How much one spends is optional always. I’ve heard stuff at dealerships which cost many times the value of my own rig, and I wouldn’t buy them with Doug’s money… and surely not how they were set up.

Like the Flatlanders tune… Now it’s now again. It’s the set up more so than the dollars being laid down… and that’s where the finer art (if there is such a thing) in a systems building, rests. Isolation. Power conditioning. Cabling. Acoustical treatments. Not solely the components.

One of my deals can be had for about $1500 total. I’ve no problems listening to it at all. I do on a daily basis. It doesn’t take a lot of $$$ to have a very enjoyable outfit, just an open mind, and some attention to otherwise neglected peripherals.

Finding some folks in your area with whom you can swap cables and ideas will help immensely. I just borrowed some ic’s from a friend a few states away to try out, and sent him a pair of mine too so he could do likewise. That just cost shipping to and fro. Hard to beat that deal. A dealership might well assist you as well. Or simply sticking to popular brands so resale doesn’t pose a tremendous issue can reveal good results too.

There’s no time frame, no number of products which has to be encountered, and no specified dollar amount which needs be cast into a construct, for one to become either serious or involved.

My own constraints are purely fiduciary. If I ever hit that ‘red neck’ retirement (lottery) some Saturday night, one of my first thing to do is travel. Travel to here and there to see as many different systems and components as I can. In the end I fear, it won’t matter much aside from the fun of the travel itself, only having the items in my house will actually tell the tale.

… and yeah… then I’ll spend a lot of money most likely…. ‘just cause I could.

Good luck.

Concur. The resolution of the system is critical in terms of the need for higher quality cables. For example, when I was using B&W 804S speakers, I could get away with bettercables.com cables (and they sounded good) but when I moved up to B&W 803D they sounded horrible and were replaced in short order. So, essentially, be happy if you have a lower resolution system as you can get away cheap on cables (I know my wallet wishes I would have stuck with the 804S :))

Carl, very good thoughts, all presented politely. We're having a friendly debate - it IS possbile on Audio forums!! :)

Brief answers to your points:

#1 (without any trace of condescension!) You have a sonically limited system (i.e. small, bookshelf speakers), so will hear almost no distinctions between cables. It takes a much higher end collection of gear to reveal well what diff. cables do.

#2 I believe you are personalizing/misconstruing my comments. I was for over a decade extremely finanically limited in audio expenses. I had several permutations of cheap rigs. For many years when entering the local audio shops I announced myself as the "Bottom Feeder" (as in aquariums, picking up the leftovers). I admit I was a cheapskate in terms of cables. My cheapness was not solely due to budget, but also my perspective. I didn't believe in them and wasn't about to spend on them. Of course, my rig couldn't show what they could do, so it was a circular conundrum.

#3 You do not have enough experience and the correct gear to make the sweeping declarations about cable performance that you did. That's ok, prior to my conducting the tests and learning it, I pronounced similar errors. At some point, you have to trust someone who's done the work if you haven't.

#4 While subjectively high priced for some, loftier prices can be justified for almost any technology that offers elevated performance. Indy car costs a BIT more than my car, and drives quite differently. My office system is worth a fraction of the equipment I use at home, and it's priced accordingly. It offers enjoyment, but that is not to be confused with elevated performance.

Your "theoretical ceiling" is too low. At least three times, maybe four, I have had to radically alter my conception of what is possible in terms of performance in audio systems. Each time I thought I was near the "ceiling" or limit. Each time a new system absolutely destroyed the previous experience. The range of quality/performance is FAR larger than you think.

#5 Re: What does an Electron sound like?
The question is based on the sarcastic statement made often by cable skeptics, to the effect of the constancy of cables being, "electrons flowing through a wire". The thought is that the signal is merely electrons and metal, so it can't have variability.

My point is WHO has established definitively, objectively that Electrons flowing in various metals cannot sound differently (i.e. have a constant sound)? It is presented by skeptics as fact, when it has never been demonstrated. AS such, it should be kept to opinion, rather than stated like it's some kind of law.

IF experience is not in the speaker's background, then they are off base to declare something as fact if there is no data to verify it. I have had enough experience with rigs and cabling that I am unafraid to challenge the status quo or perceived wisdom on the matter. I do not believe anyone has actual data showing that cables cannot sound differently. If so, I want to see it.

To my knowledge, only DBT is used as the "evidence" of "all cables sound the same", and this is woefully insufficient to me to prove that claim, for the reasons I stated earlier.

:)