Teo XLR

It has been stated on this thread that the constituents of Teo cables are not toxic. This is clearly untrue. The following information is available in the Internet:

"All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic [causing birth defects].

Insufficient data are available on the effect of this substance on human health, therefore utmost care must be taken."

Indium vapor is also considered highly toxic and possibly carcinogenic. Teo avoids mentioning the word indium. What is known is that this substance is highly toxic. What is not known are the potential risks. If my cables contained mercury I would not allow them in the house. Granted, indium is not mercury, but I think I am making my point.

I believe it is highly unlikely that an accident would occur with these or other similarly constituted cables. But cables can leak, as has been reported in this string -- so you never know. These days many people who have toxic substances in their kitchen are making choices to replace those products with non-toxic ones. And that goes for other areas of the house, as well.

It is up to each person to assess this for themselves and to make their own decisions. I believe it is in my best interest to make informed decisions rather than uniformed decisions. I understand people who are dismissive about these kinds of matters. But having suffered the consequences of metal toxicity in the past I always try to err on the side of safety. Pathology can take decades to show up. When it does the consequences can be extremely serious.

Taras22,
Thank you for your detailed and considerate posting. I would like to respond to a number of the comments that you have made, if I may.

1. Regarding the safety of Galinstan you state:
"... please keep in mind that this testing procedure has been either vetted or replicated by numerous medical jurisdictions around the world ..."

Kindly note the following information on the Lenntech site:
"Indium compounds are encountered rarely by most people. All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic.

Insufficient data are available on the effect of this substance on human health, therefore utmost care must be taken."

2. You state:
"But the fact that the Geratherm thermometers [that contains Galinstan which in turn contains indium] are used [sic] the world-wide medical community would seem be to a testament to the notion that these are considered safe products and not potentially dangerous as Sabai implies.

You have just proven my point. Mercury thermometers were used for many decades before they were universally recognized as being highly dangerous. Acceptance of product by the medical community is no guarantee of safety. On the contrary. Many toxic substances have been endorsed by the medical community throughout history.

3. You state:
"Now what Sabai's argument seems to strongly imply is that Geratherm has used a known highly toxic material in a way that would have a very good chance of harming people with the use of their products."

Actually, I have not implied this anywhere in my comments. In fact, I believe the chances of an accident happening are not very high with Teo cables -- at the moment. Nevertheless, having personally suffered from metal toxicity in the past, I think that any accident arising from a cable leak or from fumes being inhaled could be tragic and thus the safety aspect of this product must be thoroughly considered.

4. You state:
"His argument also implies that the testing that this product was subject to, was seriously flawed".

Up till now, everything I have read, including the information on the Teo site, suggests that they don't know what the actual toxic risk is for Galinstan and that not enough testing has been done on this product:

From the Material Safety Data Sheet on Galinstan on the Teo site, under Section 6: Health Hazards:

"To the best of our knowledge the chemical, physical and toxicological properties of gallium-indium-tin Eutectic blends have not been thoroughly investigated and reported."

Teo themselves admit that they don't know enough about the toxic risks of this product that they are marketing.

5. You state:
"First, be aware that only certain indium alloys are indeed toxic and they become a problem only if they are delivered parentally".

Please note that an NCBI study has shown the following:
"However, it is necessary to handle it [indium] more cautiously than before, because the pulmonary toxicity of inhaled indium has been identified."

6. You ask:
"Would it be ok to send the parts of this thread that list your concerns about Galinstan, and the danger it poses to humanity, to Geratherm?"

I don't see any problem at all with doing this. In fact, I would be very interested in reading the response from Geratherm.

7. You state:
"... lives may well be hanging in the balance ..." With all due respect, I believe this statement is a bit dramatic. I don't believe we are facing this kind of imminent danger. But, with the passage of time, if these cables were shown to leak indium liquid or vapor with prolonged use, then there would, at that time, be a real health issue in many homes.

8. Regarding your reference to a reward for my efforts, this surprises me because it never entered my mind. I am comfortably retired and I do not seek, or need, any reward for bringing to light what I consider to be a potentially serious health concern. With the emphasis on ""potentially".

9. My opinion, based on all available evidence, is that we should be cautious when considering using liquid metal products that contain indium.

Sabai, I think that you should know that mercury thermometers are readily avail in most Latin and South American countries. I should also note that I once had a Keith Monks tone arm that used four mercury baths both to give contact between the cartridge cables and to provide dampening for the arm.

I have also noted that indium is used in lead free solder. It is used in nuclear medicine. I also note, "oral indium compounds do not have the chronic toxicity of salts of heavy metals, probably due to poor absorption in basic conditions."

I think you have greatly exaggerated concerns about this metal. I also think that Teo has made a very constructed cables that without deliberate effort should keep the conductive liquid inside.

To Taras22; I am actually one of the other guys that test cables with Musicxyz/Dave and I was at his place the day he returned from Kingston Ontario, your place with 2 Teo cables. I have been testing cables with the same group of guys for over 10 years and the Teo cables did not do well in our blind test. You mentioned you were too busy to get involved in discussions but according to Essentialaudio you have been involved since 03-21-12. Sorry IMHO I believe this is called “damage control”. Just for the record I do respect anyone else that has an opinion on Teo cables and would never put that opinion down in any way. In regards to this discussion; in my personal opinion I do not believe this is the reasons that these forums were created and I no longer have interest in discussing whether Dave is actually Dave that is just wrong.

.Essentialaudio posting are below.

03-21-12: Essentialaudio
Musicxyz, my sources firmly indicate you are Bob, the former Canadian distributor (for a short time), and that you had just one pair of cables, and I know where those cables wound up and what they were.

03-23-12: Essentialaudio
Anyone wanting to know who visited the Teo Audio partner's home in the manner described above by Musicxyz and what quantity was purchased, independent of anything I have posted, can contact Teo Audio direct at the email address given on the 'about' page of their website, to independently verify what I have said.

Another newbie post. Seeeeeeeeeems mighty suspicious! :)