Do powercords make a difference in sound?

Hi Al, thank you for your thoughtful response. It does seem to answer my question about whether your position that power cords can't have an intrinsic 'sound' is taken primarily from theory or listening.

I am not qualified to submit to you the existence of other possible technical factors beyond the ones you listed, and indeed there may be none (though I did wonder why you omitted capacitance -- I'm sure you have a reason and will explain it). But I tend to be skeptical about any assertion that the things we know to measure for are necessarily the only qualities we would ever want or need to measure, relevent to correlating with subjective sonic impressions, if only we knew what and how. (Not that you have specifically asserted such.)

I would however venture to guess that questions of what I will loosely lump under the umbrella term of resonance, not only of the mechanical kind, may play a part. And I do believe that, despite the sorts of well-recognized factors you describe and nobody would dispute, it's highly likely that no one actually possesses the knowledge or wherewithal to sit down with a blank sheet of paper to design a power cord and know in advance just what it will sound like. (I think there's a bit of a crapshoot-factor here -- some call it 'black art' -- that demands reiterative, trial-and-error experience involving subjective listening in the design process in order to accumulate a useful knowledge base -- at least for honest designers who aren't just 'badge engineering' their products and slapping a fancy jacket on them to go along with the high price tag). But of course for those who share your take that power cords can't 'have sounds' in the first place, that assumption, even if true, would not present a conceptual hurdle.

There's nothing particularly difficult, from the standpoint of either practicality or the ability to draw valid conclusions, about an audiophile getting his or her hands on a few different power cords, trying them on various components, and seeing whether or not any consistencies in sonic signature tend to migrate with the cords to a perceptible degree. You could do it as easily as I. If you did, I'd wager that you just might reconsider whether you've satisfactorily explained everything there may be to think about from the theoretical perspective.

Fortunately however, the whole question is largely trivial and moot in my view. Whether or not power cords, or any cables for that matter, possess their own intrinsic 'sounds', or whether such qualities, to the extend we believe and can observe that they exist at all, are purely extrinsic in nature, at the end of the day we all still need some kind of wires to hook up and plug in our gear with. And unless you're going to design and make your own, or are hell-bent on just going to Home Despot and buying off the reel without subjectively evaluating anything else, so as to conform with preexisting beliefs (however apparently logical) -- or maybe just in order to save money (quite logical if someone has never heard a difference) -- then there's really nothing else to do but identify a few likely candidates, quite probably based on theoretical considerations among others, and then listen to music through them. Except of course if debating about it online is the higher priority... ;^)

Cheers, that's all I got, I'm out!

Interesting thread as always when this topic comes up...sorta. Loved Audiofiels last post especially!

I am very fortunate to possess 2 invaluable qualities I have cherished in exploring this subject: Ignorance and apathy. These items have helped me keep the whole process pretty damn simple. I have very little knowledge of the inerworkings of electricity, power supplies/delivery etc and as important, I really do not care to learn the details. I do care how music sounds in my living room so the issue of power cords has been messed around with for a few years now. What my simple exercises have taught me is that power cords influence my systems performance and different cords have a sonic signature or character that is consistent (fairly) across different component groups. Actually, it's really kinda obvious once you start putting them in and listening so it always baffles me when others post they are not able to hear it....but....in the bigger picture I don't care that much as I really am mainly interested in how music sounds in my living room, not so much in yours! I am not so sure why I felt compelled to contribute here but I did none the less.

Lets take a simple example, just for sake of ease... Nordost Vallhala power cord. Now, it is a nice cord that does some things well and some things not so well. I would guess that if you took some time and searched a large sample of forum posts that described what these power cords sound like there would be a relatively consistent sonic picture painted. Why? In fact, if I asked you guys to describe this cord, I would guess that many would have very similar adjectives. Same could be said for Tara's family of power cables which sound dramatically different than Nordost. Most of the folks who would chime in came to the understanding of these characters by listening to the cords. How is it possible that all these unrelated parties in unrelated systems seem to come up with the very same sonic images that occur when these specific cords are inserted in their system?

Zaikesman and Richard, you are correct.

I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used. Testing over one dozen sets of cables on multiple components/speakers has cemented this for me.

The nature (geometry, gauge, conductor material, dielectric, etc.) of the cable (which travels with the cable, obviously) trumps the extrinsic interactions between it and components/speakers. A cable which, in comparision to a different set, sounds dull, will sound dull on any rig. A cable, which in comparison to another set sounds bass heavy, will sound bass heavy on any rig. etc. I have absolutely not found any cable which is a chamelion, i.e. changing it's sonic nature such that sounds dramatically different on a variety of gear, such as highly detailed with one system while sounding dull with another system.

You two guys have found one of the secrets of building a superior system. Most audiophiles are too unwilling to spend the money or too unwilling to spend the time to discover it. :)

Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names, and I used to be too chintzy to conduct the tests myself. I'm very glad I got over it.

I have no problem with a person who simply has no interest or the means to pursue a rig to the point of chasing down cabling. I do have a problem with someone who wants to tell others what's possible when they haven't lifted a finger to test it. I like the sentiment: While some are saying, "It can't be done," others are out doing it.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences.

This fits perfectly with my Law of Efficacy, which states that a change must be heard immediately (typically within seconds, not mintues, hours or longer), and be deemed easy enough to describe without a struggle. He admitted that he had not been so much of a cable enthusiast but that the difference was distinct. In other words, he was learning that power cords are more important than he thought.

This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable canges can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I didn't even need to change the entire set for them to reach that conclusion, just a set of ICs or two power cords! A demo in moments convinced him more than hours of talking would.

I've stopped being surprised at how surprised manufacturers and distributors are at such demonstrations. I realize most of them have never conducted such tests. If even the industry people aren't conducting these tests, should I expect the average audiophile to? Probably not.

I simply won't argue indefinitely with someone who is capable of conducting simple tests and refuses. Then, why do I occasionally post my comments? Because there are some lurkers who will actually act on my advice and find out I'm right. They will be the big winners in terms of listening experience. :)

There, I've made my contribution toward 90, if anyone's counting. ;)

Mr. Schroeder, You said it more eloquently than I ever could and a hearty "Thank you" for adding such a convincing post... I have personally answered several similar posts and always ended on a frustrated note even when exclaiming how [exactly as you said] the differences are clearly noticeable right away and both distinctive and consistent.
There is no argument here. There is no countering the fact that in every single application where, in a reasonably revealing system, differences between powercords can be "instantly and consistently determined" 100% of the time (as several visitors have done in my listening room and I'm sure thousands of other rooms as well) that this IS therefore a proven factual statement.
NO argument. Did I say 100% of the time?? Oh yes, I did...I actually meant 100% of the time... that is 100% of the time...
Got it guys Instantly and consistently. No excuses, no guesses... It is what it is. For those of you who ever doubted it I suggest you try it for yourself and enjoy investigating the amazing world of what aftermarket powercords can do to improve YOUR system's listening enjoyment.
Happy Lissn'n

08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used...
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names...

Al and I have been advancing the view that the audible characteristics of power cords are likely to be extrinsic, and therefore are likely to vary to some extent across diverse applications. Perhaps you don't mean to imply that we are either lazy or cheap, though that is one interpretation of your comments, even if you decline to name names.

I am occasionally lazy and occasionally cheap, though I can't say that I've been either with respect to power cords. If you click on my system, you will see that I currently have 3 power cords in my system with an MSRP of over $1000. The rest of the power cords in the system easily add up to another $500. That's $3.5k in power cords. I did buy some of the cords used, so I didn't spend the whole 3.5, but I spent an appreciable fraction of that. So much for being cheap.

As far as being lazy, I won't pretend that I've done a carefully controlled study of the audible effects of power cords under scientifically valid conditions. I suspect that virtually no one has done that, though perhaps you have. What I can say is what I said in my last post, namely that, in my experience, I have not found that power cords have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. Admittedly, my experience is limited. And I recognize that there are audiophiles with far greater experience than my own. That is why I asked Zaikesman, in all sincerity, to report the particulars of his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. Maybe he didn't see my question.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences...This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable changes can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room.

I don't doubt what this speaker manufacturer heard in your listening room, and for that matter, I don't doubt what you've heard in your listening room, but I will point out that the story above provides no evidence that the audible changes you experienced were INTRINSIC to the cables. Changing a cable and then hearing a difference does not tell you whether the difference heard is attributable to characteristics of the cable itself or to characteristics of the cable's interactions with the components to which it is attached.

Neither I nor Al has expressed doubt that power cables can result in audible differences. We have expressed doubt, in different ways, about whether the differences that are heard among power cables are attributable solely to the cables themselves. It is clear from your post that you believe that they are, but what you report in your post does provide a reason for that conclusion. I suspect you do in fact have a reason, as I have read some of your other posts, and found you a knowledgable and reasonable person.

For those of us with less experience, can you provide a specific example or two in which a power cord exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications?

Bryon