Do powercords make a difference in sound?

Interesting thread as always when this topic comes up...sorta. Loved Audiofiels last post especially!

I am very fortunate to possess 2 invaluable qualities I have cherished in exploring this subject: Ignorance and apathy. These items have helped me keep the whole process pretty damn simple. I have very little knowledge of the inerworkings of electricity, power supplies/delivery etc and as important, I really do not care to learn the details. I do care how music sounds in my living room so the issue of power cords has been messed around with for a few years now. What my simple exercises have taught me is that power cords influence my systems performance and different cords have a sonic signature or character that is consistent (fairly) across different component groups. Actually, it's really kinda obvious once you start putting them in and listening so it always baffles me when others post they are not able to hear it....but....in the bigger picture I don't care that much as I really am mainly interested in how music sounds in my living room, not so much in yours! I am not so sure why I felt compelled to contribute here but I did none the less.

Lets take a simple example, just for sake of ease... Nordost Vallhala power cord. Now, it is a nice cord that does some things well and some things not so well. I would guess that if you took some time and searched a large sample of forum posts that described what these power cords sound like there would be a relatively consistent sonic picture painted. Why? In fact, if I asked you guys to describe this cord, I would guess that many would have very similar adjectives. Same could be said for Tara's family of power cables which sound dramatically different than Nordost. Most of the folks who would chime in came to the understanding of these characters by listening to the cords. How is it possible that all these unrelated parties in unrelated systems seem to come up with the very same sonic images that occur when these specific cords are inserted in their system?

Zaikesman and Richard, you are correct.

I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used. Testing over one dozen sets of cables on multiple components/speakers has cemented this for me.

The nature (geometry, gauge, conductor material, dielectric, etc.) of the cable (which travels with the cable, obviously) trumps the extrinsic interactions between it and components/speakers. A cable which, in comparision to a different set, sounds dull, will sound dull on any rig. A cable, which in comparison to another set sounds bass heavy, will sound bass heavy on any rig. etc. I have absolutely not found any cable which is a chamelion, i.e. changing it's sonic nature such that sounds dramatically different on a variety of gear, such as highly detailed with one system while sounding dull with another system.

You two guys have found one of the secrets of building a superior system. Most audiophiles are too unwilling to spend the money or too unwilling to spend the time to discover it. :)

Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names, and I used to be too chintzy to conduct the tests myself. I'm very glad I got over it.

I have no problem with a person who simply has no interest or the means to pursue a rig to the point of chasing down cabling. I do have a problem with someone who wants to tell others what's possible when they haven't lifted a finger to test it. I like the sentiment: While some are saying, "It can't be done," others are out doing it.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences.

This fits perfectly with my Law of Efficacy, which states that a change must be heard immediately (typically within seconds, not mintues, hours or longer), and be deemed easy enough to describe without a struggle. He admitted that he had not been so much of a cable enthusiast but that the difference was distinct. In other words, he was learning that power cords are more important than he thought.

This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable canges can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I didn't even need to change the entire set for them to reach that conclusion, just a set of ICs or two power cords! A demo in moments convinced him more than hours of talking would.

I've stopped being surprised at how surprised manufacturers and distributors are at such demonstrations. I realize most of them have never conducted such tests. If even the industry people aren't conducting these tests, should I expect the average audiophile to? Probably not.

I simply won't argue indefinitely with someone who is capable of conducting simple tests and refuses. Then, why do I occasionally post my comments? Because there are some lurkers who will actually act on my advice and find out I'm right. They will be the big winners in terms of listening experience. :)

There, I've made my contribution toward 90, if anyone's counting. ;)

Mr. Schroeder, You said it more eloquently than I ever could and a hearty "Thank you" for adding such a convincing post... I have personally answered several similar posts and always ended on a frustrated note even when exclaiming how [exactly as you said] the differences are clearly noticeable right away and both distinctive and consistent.
There is no argument here. There is no countering the fact that in every single application where, in a reasonably revealing system, differences between powercords can be "instantly and consistently determined" 100% of the time (as several visitors have done in my listening room and I'm sure thousands of other rooms as well) that this IS therefore a proven factual statement.
NO argument. Did I say 100% of the time?? Oh yes, I did...I actually meant 100% of the time... that is 100% of the time...
Got it guys Instantly and consistently. No excuses, no guesses... It is what it is. For those of you who ever doubted it I suggest you try it for yourself and enjoy investigating the amazing world of what aftermarket powercords can do to improve YOUR system's listening enjoyment.
Happy Lissn'n

08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used...
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names...

Al and I have been advancing the view that the audible characteristics of power cords are likely to be extrinsic, and therefore are likely to vary to some extent across diverse applications. Perhaps you don't mean to imply that we are either lazy or cheap, though that is one interpretation of your comments, even if you decline to name names.

I am occasionally lazy and occasionally cheap, though I can't say that I've been either with respect to power cords. If you click on my system, you will see that I currently have 3 power cords in my system with an MSRP of over $1000. The rest of the power cords in the system easily add up to another $500. That's $3.5k in power cords. I did buy some of the cords used, so I didn't spend the whole 3.5, but I spent an appreciable fraction of that. So much for being cheap.

As far as being lazy, I won't pretend that I've done a carefully controlled study of the audible effects of power cords under scientifically valid conditions. I suspect that virtually no one has done that, though perhaps you have. What I can say is what I said in my last post, namely that, in my experience, I have not found that power cords have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. Admittedly, my experience is limited. And I recognize that there are audiophiles with far greater experience than my own. That is why I asked Zaikesman, in all sincerity, to report the particulars of his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. Maybe he didn't see my question.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences...This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable changes can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room.

I don't doubt what this speaker manufacturer heard in your listening room, and for that matter, I don't doubt what you've heard in your listening room, but I will point out that the story above provides no evidence that the audible changes you experienced were INTRINSIC to the cables. Changing a cable and then hearing a difference does not tell you whether the difference heard is attributable to characteristics of the cable itself or to characteristics of the cable's interactions with the components to which it is attached.

Neither I nor Al has expressed doubt that power cables can result in audible differences. We have expressed doubt, in different ways, about whether the differences that are heard among power cables are attributable solely to the cables themselves. It is clear from your post that you believe that they are, but what you report in your post does provide a reason for that conclusion. I suspect you do in fact have a reason, as I have read some of your other posts, and found you a knowledgable and reasonable person.

For those of us with less experience, can you provide a specific example or two in which a power cord exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications?

Bryon

Bryon, as usual, quite logical and concise discussion. I made the statement regarding chintzy people and those without desire to work at it due to the sheer abundance of times these issues arise, not to infer that you or Al are pegged as one or the other. I do not mean to be offensive in any way. :)

I have to laugh; last night I watched 'Shark Tank' and in one segment a belt buckle manufacturer was called a pig (greedy) by one shark and another suggested he was lying about his sales. So, one shark concludes of the man, "So, he's a liar and a pig!" The man stood there stunned; it was them labeling him then reinforcing the label! So, Bryan, if you feel I've labeled you, my apologies. As you demonstrate, you're not chintzy with cables. :)

Ironically, I used to pride myself on my chintziness as an audiophile. I would go down to the local high end store where I had the nickname "The Bottom Feeder" (as in aquarium fish) because I sought super-economical cast offs from others. I wouldn't have dreamed of spending serious money for cables. It was only comparisons, and later, comparisons of entire sets, which utterly changed by perspective. Talk did nothing to sway me; only experience mattered. You must admit, there are a lot of audiophiles like that - and no, I'm not insinuating you are one! I find it ironic that there are other audiophiles for which talk/discussion is the final arbiter of the 'truth' of cables, even though simple comparison is quite easy. :)

If you are seeking controlled experiements I'll not be offering them for you. My position is that the difference sonically between cables in order to be efficacious must be so great that a controlled experiment is not necessary. If I cannot (or others in the room with me) can't hear the distinction, if we have to strain to hear a difference, or can't hear a difference immediatetly then the cable, preamp, etc. fails instantly. Above all, in this matter the result has to be practical; I am not into chasing marginal improvements in a rig. Similarly, to ascertain if a cable is 'carrying' its sonic properties the effect has to be so evident, so obvious that one would easily conclude the cable to be influencing the rig with it's sonic properties.

Perhaps the analogy of a sunset would help here. While not measuring but simply observing the sunset one can say with certainty that the sky five minutes after the last observation has changed. Does the person have "data" for that obseveration? No. Are they wrong? No. Clearly, observational experience is all that is necessary to determine a valid argument and conclusion. Now if I told you about it would you demand data from me to believe it? Why do we accept observations in one setting but not in another? (No need to answer; it's a hypothetical question pointing out that for the individual observation can be plenty adequate to be convincing of 'reality').

What if one were to look at the sky five seconds later? Or perhaps one minute later? Would the sky look different? Much more unlikely. I would equate looking at the sky five seconds later to hearing a set of cables which are similar in design/sound. In that case the proposed upgrade would be a fail in terms of the Law of Efficacy. The change has to be dramatic, like looking at the sky five minutes later, every bit as powerful/dramatic as a component change. One wire on its own typically can't do that, but a set can.

I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result. I do not wish to share that information at this time. I've spent a lot of time on cables and teasing out their practical application in systems!

This is what I am doing, taking listening "measurements" with different conditions. My observations have held without exception; EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.

I am fairly adamant that this friendly debate cannot be settled apart from testing sets of cables. The entire premise that a cable carries intrinsic sound properties is impossible to conclude based upon mixing them. If you stick a cable in one mix and move it to another mix what have you done? Nothing with certainty! What you have done is reinforce the false notion that cables have no consistent sound! Hundreds of audiophiles do this and reach the wrong conclusion!

Only by hearing sets and hearing them transferred to different equipment as compared to another set will reveal clearly that a cable's intrinsic properties travel with it.