Do powercords make a difference in sound?

08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used...
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names...

Al and I have been advancing the view that the audible characteristics of power cords are likely to be extrinsic, and therefore are likely to vary to some extent across diverse applications. Perhaps you don't mean to imply that we are either lazy or cheap, though that is one interpretation of your comments, even if you decline to name names.

I am occasionally lazy and occasionally cheap, though I can't say that I've been either with respect to power cords. If you click on my system, you will see that I currently have 3 power cords in my system with an MSRP of over $1000. The rest of the power cords in the system easily add up to another $500. That's $3.5k in power cords. I did buy some of the cords used, so I didn't spend the whole 3.5, but I spent an appreciable fraction of that. So much for being cheap.

As far as being lazy, I won't pretend that I've done a carefully controlled study of the audible effects of power cords under scientifically valid conditions. I suspect that virtually no one has done that, though perhaps you have. What I can say is what I said in my last post, namely that, in my experience, I have not found that power cords have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. Admittedly, my experience is limited. And I recognize that there are audiophiles with far greater experience than my own. That is why I asked Zaikesman, in all sincerity, to report the particulars of his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. Maybe he didn't see my question.

By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences...This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable changes can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room.

I don't doubt what this speaker manufacturer heard in your listening room, and for that matter, I don't doubt what you've heard in your listening room, but I will point out that the story above provides no evidence that the audible changes you experienced were INTRINSIC to the cables. Changing a cable and then hearing a difference does not tell you whether the difference heard is attributable to characteristics of the cable itself or to characteristics of the cable's interactions with the components to which it is attached.

Neither I nor Al has expressed doubt that power cables can result in audible differences. We have expressed doubt, in different ways, about whether the differences that are heard among power cables are attributable solely to the cables themselves. It is clear from your post that you believe that they are, but what you report in your post does provide a reason for that conclusion. I suspect you do in fact have a reason, as I have read some of your other posts, and found you a knowledgable and reasonable person.

For those of us with less experience, can you provide a specific example or two in which a power cord exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications?

Bryon

Bryon, as usual, quite logical and concise discussion. I made the statement regarding chintzy people and those without desire to work at it due to the sheer abundance of times these issues arise, not to infer that you or Al are pegged as one or the other. I do not mean to be offensive in any way. :)

I have to laugh; last night I watched 'Shark Tank' and in one segment a belt buckle manufacturer was called a pig (greedy) by one shark and another suggested he was lying about his sales. So, one shark concludes of the man, "So, he's a liar and a pig!" The man stood there stunned; it was them labeling him then reinforcing the label! So, Bryan, if you feel I've labeled you, my apologies. As you demonstrate, you're not chintzy with cables. :)

Ironically, I used to pride myself on my chintziness as an audiophile. I would go down to the local high end store where I had the nickname "The Bottom Feeder" (as in aquarium fish) because I sought super-economical cast offs from others. I wouldn't have dreamed of spending serious money for cables. It was only comparisons, and later, comparisons of entire sets, which utterly changed by perspective. Talk did nothing to sway me; only experience mattered. You must admit, there are a lot of audiophiles like that - and no, I'm not insinuating you are one! I find it ironic that there are other audiophiles for which talk/discussion is the final arbiter of the 'truth' of cables, even though simple comparison is quite easy. :)

If you are seeking controlled experiements I'll not be offering them for you. My position is that the difference sonically between cables in order to be efficacious must be so great that a controlled experiment is not necessary. If I cannot (or others in the room with me) can't hear the distinction, if we have to strain to hear a difference, or can't hear a difference immediatetly then the cable, preamp, etc. fails instantly. Above all, in this matter the result has to be practical; I am not into chasing marginal improvements in a rig. Similarly, to ascertain if a cable is 'carrying' its sonic properties the effect has to be so evident, so obvious that one would easily conclude the cable to be influencing the rig with it's sonic properties.

Perhaps the analogy of a sunset would help here. While not measuring but simply observing the sunset one can say with certainty that the sky five minutes after the last observation has changed. Does the person have "data" for that obseveration? No. Are they wrong? No. Clearly, observational experience is all that is necessary to determine a valid argument and conclusion. Now if I told you about it would you demand data from me to believe it? Why do we accept observations in one setting but not in another? (No need to answer; it's a hypothetical question pointing out that for the individual observation can be plenty adequate to be convincing of 'reality').

What if one were to look at the sky five seconds later? Or perhaps one minute later? Would the sky look different? Much more unlikely. I would equate looking at the sky five seconds later to hearing a set of cables which are similar in design/sound. In that case the proposed upgrade would be a fail in terms of the Law of Efficacy. The change has to be dramatic, like looking at the sky five minutes later, every bit as powerful/dramatic as a component change. One wire on its own typically can't do that, but a set can.

I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result. I do not wish to share that information at this time. I've spent a lot of time on cables and teasing out their practical application in systems!

This is what I am doing, taking listening "measurements" with different conditions. My observations have held without exception; EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.

I am fairly adamant that this friendly debate cannot be settled apart from testing sets of cables. The entire premise that a cable carries intrinsic sound properties is impossible to conclude based upon mixing them. If you stick a cable in one mix and move it to another mix what have you done? Nothing with certainty! What you have done is reinforce the false notion that cables have no consistent sound! Hundreds of audiophiles do this and reach the wrong conclusion!

Only by hearing sets and hearing them transferred to different equipment as compared to another set will reveal clearly that a cable's intrinsic properties travel with it.

a cables intrinsic attributes can be impacted by the other components of a stereo system. for example, suppose, a power cord has an audible peak in the treble. bring that power cord to a system consisting of classic tube electronics and a speaker which may be attenuated in the treble. the character of the cable may be obscured.

if a stereo system is relatively uncolored and reasonably resolved, then the character of any component is relatively easy to discern. if a stereo system has some (egregious) or observable coloration it will be harder to identify the sonic nature of a component.

Douglas - Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. It's difficult to advocate a view in the face of opposition while remaining a gentleman. Thank you for doing that.

I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result… EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.

This observation is actually easier for me to believe than some of the other observations that have been made on this thread, and it highlights the need to distinguish the following two views…

(1) SETS of power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different SYSTEMS.

(2) INDIVIDUAL power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different COMPONENTS within the same system.

For whatever reason, (1) is easier for me to believe than (2). Maybe that is nothing more than a prejudice on my part.

It’s clear from the passage I quoted above that, in your experience, (1) is true. I am interested to hear whether, in your experience, (2) is also true. In other words…

Let’s say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?

bc

hi byron:

i believe if you change the amp using the same cord, the roll off may disappear. if it doesn't, it suggests the cord may have a problem. you can't know what is causing the roll off until you co vary the power cord and amp.

a thorough logical analysis is required when you have two variables to look at.