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DAC woes - what to do

Greetings,
Oh Boy!!! Another "what should I buy" thread! Yippee!!!
Seriously though... looking for some personal experience and potential recommendations.
Ive been looking for a new CD player recently, preferably in the <$1000 range.
I recently ended up buying a Rega DAC. Actually, I bought an apollo-r at first, but it was possessed by demons and wouldnt play most of my CD's (even new, non-scratched ones.) So, I exchanged it for the DAC instead.
I was lured into the Rega by its very unique sound. Its beefy but articulate and with good definition...or so I thought upon initial comparisons (I compared it with 6 different players in my home system, as well as many others at the shop.)
But, as it breaks-in, the "beef" is turning to "bloat" and the enchantment is waning. Its too "soft" up top to balance the low-end emphasis. Not to mention that one of the toslink connector "shutters" broke off inside the receiver on first attempt to plug it up, and is unusable now. And, the automuting pops/hisses when the transport is powered on (the demo DAC didnt do this.) So, Im already waiting for the replacement to come in. So now is the time to return it, if Im going to.
Anway, back on track... I admit, I got "sucked in" by the so-called "analog" sound, and I did enjoy it for a while. There is something unique about this Rega. The individual instruments are quite articulate, and the soundstage is enormous. But what Ive noticed that that, while the instruments are individually defined, they tend to get "lost" in the vast stage. Its very difficult to place them in relation to each other.
For example, I listen to mostly choir/choral, chamber and full orchestral works. I was originally enchanted to actually hear additional voices from music Ive heard 1000x before. It was very cool. And, the noise floor is extremely low...the instruments seem to come out of a black hole. Its almost eery, especially with dark arrangements. But more and more, especially with "busy," intricate voices, they've begun to "smear," for lack of a better word.
For the "record" (another pun,) I have a halo p7 pre-amp, parasound hca 1500 amp and paradigm studio 20 v5's (with a hsu sub.) Not hi-fi for many, but its a very "honest" sounding system, which is my intent.
I keep thinking back to this peachtree DAC I auditioned. It had better definition and "air" than the Rega (yes, I A/B'd them,) but the Rega destroyed it in the lower frequency response, and was therefore more impressive at the time.
So, Im afraid the Rega has to go back. Not counting the sound, Im a bit concerned about long time reliability (Im 0 for 2 right now with their reliability... not great.)
Im also afraid Im going to have to admit that I like a "digital" sound, as much as people seem to be afraid to admit that. I dont like analog bloom and "laid back" presentation, although I realize a lot of people do, and thats great. And Im convinced there is something out there near my price range that combines the "beef" of the Rega with the "sweet" and definition/clarity of the peachtree.
I dont have any music fidelity dealers here in Atlanta, so Im considering buying an M1 on a hunch. I hate to judge by reviews, but it seems the might be the "ticket" in this price range. Or maybe the Benchmark DAC 1, but again, I dont have any dealers locally to easily hear one.
So, in summary... I want Rega soundstage width, but with a tighter, less accentuated mids and lows, and brighter, crisper highs. Does anyone have any recommendations in the $1k range?
BTW, Im open to single-box players, but Ive listened to a ton lately, and I dont think Im going to find one with as good of an analog output section as many of the DAC's. That seems to be the "ticket" to the magic of the external DAC.
And for the record, I did listen to one much more expensive model, the NAD M51. I only listed to it at the store, and it seemed too bright compared a/b with the Rega, but that might actually be the ticket, especially after break-in. Ill probably demo it at home to compare before I return the Rega.
Again, I might consider the NAD or something like a Bryston BDA-1 at around $2k, but Id prefer to stay around half that.
Anyway, thanks in advance for any input.
lightspeed240
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,182 posts
 
"What to do, yeah! I really don't know what to do...."

Just buy the best reviewed and most widely accepted neutral sounding and detailed DAC and build around it as needed. That would be the BEnchmark. Then be prepared to do whatever is needed step by step from there to get it all fine tuned.

Sounds like fun to me, especially with someone else's money. :^)
cerrot's avatar
cerrot
1,700 posts
 
for a grand, the benchmark, definitely. BUT, I wonder what I could get used... a berkeley dac for $1,500 would kill anything you'd be looking at, and with the new models out there, I think they may get there soon. I know if I weren't using mine (and had a few others), I'd sell mine for a fast $1,500.
lightspeed240 OP
18 posts
 
Hello, thanks again for the feedback.

Roxy, I didnt read anything too egregious in your response, I just thought it was funny (it was.) I definitely appreciate your experience with the audio note. Again, its a super cool piece of equipment.

The new benchmark and parsound zdac are waiting at the fedex store for me, as we speak, so I guess Ill get no sleep again tonight LOL Let the fun begin!

But here is something really interesting, and it was quite "revelatory" in some ways. Last night, as I was anxiously making space in my rack and getting hookups ready for the shoot-outs, I decided to listen to some of my older amps with this rega first.
So first I listened to my little 60 watt rotel. I bought it a long time ago but I never really used it, except when experimenting with HT setups. I have small, fairly efficient speakers, and I dont usually listen at high levels, so power isnt a real concern. But wow...its a lot brighter than I remembered, but not in a good way. Compared to my normal parasound, it sounded really harsh all over the place. Very "high strung" Id call it. It sucked all of the life out of that rega, to the point that it was actually too lean on the dac's filter (4) that I like the most. I actually couldnt get any of the filters to sound as I wanted.
OK, so that was a fail.
So then I decided to try an HCA750. I figured this might be a waste, because if you look at the component topology, it looks almost identical to the rotel, and its very similar specs and components. But since I had my system torn apart, I figured why not.
I was blown away. All of the low-mid range congestion was gone. Imaging is just as wide but more precise. The overall setup sounds almost exactly as I envisioned it. Its almost to the point that I have nothing to complain about.

I didnt even try the zamps I have at this point. They arent powerful enough to full-range in my setup, but they have ridiculously flat frequency response curves, as I recall when they were bench tested. They are probably a good window to see what the source is doing.
So now Im perplexed. Ive heard the HCA1500 called "sweeter" and "warmer" than the smaller ones, but this is extreme. Ive sometime thought this 1500 was overpowered for my setup, but bigger has to be better...right? Not with this setup obviously. I dont know if something is "wrong" with my 1500, but I just find it hard to believe that either (1) its frequency response is so much exaggerated in the midrange to cause this or (2) this small hca and the rotel (especially) are so lean in that frequency range. I dont recall this big of a difference when I "upgraded" from the 1000 to the 1500, but it was several years ago. It seems pretty clear that the rotel is bright, the 750 is "neutral" and the 1500 is dark.
It makes me regret selling my HCA1000 now, as Im thinking it could have been the best compromise.
So was I being too "harsh" on the rega (pun intended?) I dont know. But maybe.
Ill continue the shootout, but with this smaller hca. But, I think its going to be tough to get much improvement at this point, given my room acoustics.
Now Ive started down this slippery slope Ive tried to avoid. I have to now re-consider my power amp. Im wondering if the best "use" of $2k, in my current case, would be on a small halo a23 and keep the rega.

Any, Ill post up my thoughts after I hear these new devices. But it seems an amp change may be the next round.
loftarasa
171 posts
 
Lightspeed, I do run my M51 balanced straight into my P1 power amp. The volume control is excellent, and I preferred it to using the iFi iTube (in both buffer and preamp modes). FWIW, the M51 did better than the Benchmark DAC2 HGC as a preamp, though I have heard several ESS based DACs and honestly...I just don't like them (something unnatural in the mids and treble).

I have heard the Rega DAC and found it muddy and lo-mid-fi. The M51 is more refined. My last points...you shouldn't worry about the filtering and should rather just evaluate the sound of the DAC as a whole in your system. That's what really determines suitability. Also, no way I agree power amps are less risky to buy used than DACs. DACs are probably the safest things to buy used cause of the lack of stress on passive parts. I think some people are selling their M51s cause the new, more expensive, M12 has just been released - though from what I read, the actual DAC section of the M12 is the same as the M51.

I thought you might also like to audition the Naim DAC (original) or their newer DAC-V1. I've also auditioned these and was impressed - they do all the hi-fi things well but also that Naim PRAT thing.
wisnon
700 posts
 
Hold your horses:
iDSD Mini

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i. 3 Donuts
ii. Mention of “Damp squid”
iii. Picture of Godzilla and wrestling with Gezora

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Capable of full DSD512 and 768kHz PCM (2xDXD) directly from the computer to the micro iDSD via USB, natively with NO conversion - we have had to bite our lip as we have been absolutely gagging to tell you but had to keep refraining from letting anything slip.

By comparison, even the most expensive DACs in the world costing upwards of US$50,000, are a little “old hat” as they are several format levels behind only now, attaining:
DSD128 (one or two at DSD 256)
PCM384kHz

The iFi micro iDSD feature set means it has blasted light years ahead to bring true high-end technology to the mass market.

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The micro iDSD is available in stores mid-July so you are only ~two weeks from having the Micro iDSD in the palm of your hand.

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For native rate playback...

What you say? There is no material at these high rates?
I guess they will have to come out with appropriate ADCs then...LoL

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