2. cables
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WOW, they are important, but in what order?

OK, I'll admit it right now. Cables are important (even if the one's I used were "high quality" but maybe not best suited for audio.

With a MOON W-8 amplifier and C4's run through a PASS LABS XP-10, differences in speaker and interconnect cables are as big as the difference beteen amplifiers. And I do mean both speaker cables and XLR interconnects.

As far as interconnects go, the ANALYSIS Plus Silver XLR brand is a very good sounding cable for the money. The NORDOST tyre2 are beyond reproach in sound and affordability, at least on C4's.

Also, XLR has a much wider soundstage than RCA's in my system. The RCA's sound like they image better, but it's because they are more left, center, right sounding. The XLR's have a sound "front" that is expansive left to right with no gaps anywhere. And, the image is much more holographic. Is anyone else hearing this between XLR and RCA's?

WHEN to do WHAT ain't as easy as it sounds (pun there) as every cable in your system adds to the end sound. Is there a "right" order to tackle this? Waht order did you all use? Why? Just dumb luck over time and random?

I decided to start with the pre to power XLR interconnects and get the best balance there as I used the garbage-in garbage-out process. Get it as close to right at the start as I can afford and put the best cable where everything can use it. Then go to speaker cables...I thought. But no, I have all those CD, phono ETC to XP-10 interconnects, too. Well, I'd better get those squared away BEFORE speaker cables (I think).

Am I doing something wrong with;
ANALYSIS Plus Silver RCA - CD to XP-10 interconnect
ANALYSIS Plus Silver XLR - LP5.3 head amp to XP-10 interconnect.
"some brand" higher grade tone-arm to LP 5.3 head-amp cable.
NORDOST tyr2 XLR from XP-10 to MOON W-8.

Once all that is sorted out, I can THEN investigate speaker cables for final "sounding". It seems the improvements would taper off markedly as you daisey-chain cables in the system such as; CD to XP-10, XP-10 to MOON W-8, W-8 to speakers. I haven't borrowed enough cables to do the full monty to hear any of this. Comments? Whaen did the jumpos in sound diminish? One cable in the chain, two?

The prices amaze me, though. But, it's sort of like this, what else can you buy that makes as big a difference in the sound for the same money? Going from my KISMET amps to the MOON W-8 sounds about the same amount better as moving to NORDOST tyr2 XLR's from the XP-10 to the W-8 amp and replacing my Belded 1694A with gold compression RCA jacks that were doing the same job. The amp was 10 grand, and the XLR NORDOST tyr2 cables are like a fourth of that, but gave the same (subjective, but you do hear it!) jump in sound. So yes, cables are expensive but "relative" to what improvements they make, they seems to have you by the high-notes! I have nothing left in my system from an active device standpoint that can do more than passive cables.

I refused to consider cables till I got the hardware done. But man, I was not ready for what I heard at all. I was definitely not ready for the prices. After listening to the system with good cables, though, the prices are easier to swallow as I'll keep the cables through sveral upgrades of hardware. Modern equipment can really separate cables by sound. No, the stuff I use may not be best for what you use, either. THAT is also a major frustration as so many cables contribute to the sound in so many combinations. Where do you stick the brighter cablers to offset the softer cables? Can you find all "just right" cables (I haven't)?

And, I'll never buy something I don't know the "sound" of. They are THAT different. Sure, any good cable will beat my initial reference Belden leads but, ONE will catch your fancy tonally. Find a good dealer and get some loaners in YOUR system. Go with what you HEAR. Be nice and get a couple cords from him before you get them on AudiogoN used. His service deserves a sale. Cables are like speakers, people change around all the time. So, you can find good cords you like, even if someone else moves on from them.

So all you guy I told that cable are more like fine tone controls, you can now tell me I was wrong, because I was. You need to keep repeating your experiences and see if things have changed, and have they. You learn, and then keep re-learning!At this level of equipment it is simply mandatory to get high grade audio only cables. The differences are like different speakers, and I've just replaced the XLR or speaker cables at separate times and not at the same time. I can't wait to get a full chain completed and listen. But, buddy can you spare dime? Power cords, though still escape me.
rower30
xti16
1,525 posts
 
Rower30 I had the Nordost Norse Series 2 demo case for a while. One thing I was very interested in was which made the larger difference in sound - speaker cables or Ic's? I made the assumption the Ic's would make a bigger difference considering everything starts at the source. Well my ears proved me wrong. I found the speaker cables made a bigger difference in sound. The Tyr2 Sc sounded much fuller than the Try2 Ic. Now My original cables were the Frey 1 Ic and Sc so that was my reference point. I'll grant you the originals and series 2 are quite different but make an interesting mixture of both series. For me I went the Tyr2 Ic and kept my Frey1 Sc. Honestly that's all I could afford at the time. That was a tough choice because I would think the Vahalla Ic and Try2 Sc would be a killer combo. Yeah talk about expensive.

Personally I tend to agree with you regarding Rca vs Xlr. I get a wider sound stage with Xlr but prefer the pinpoint imaging the Rca's bring. Also I don't care for the gain you add with Xlr's.

I think I mentioned in a previous post regarding amps I have an Octave V70SE tube integrated with a black box driving Dyn C1 Signatures with a Meridian G08 source. We both have great taste in speakers but have our differences in amps. I prefer more musical with great control over highly detailed with great control. When my Dyn dealer carried Sim Audio I found myself listening to the equipment and instruments more than the music. Anyhow we all have our preferences ;-)

I wish you you the best of luck in your cable search. But based on your sonic preferences you may just want to check out the Vahalla's. Yes they are even more expensive than the series 2 but again quite different. And yes you finally have a system were hi-end cables will make a significant difference.
rower30 OP
211 posts
 
...Rower30 drank the Koolaid...

Hey Elizabeth, don't you hate it, though! A belief is what you think you know, knowledge is what you do. Early on (thirty years ago!) I had the knowledge as to how important cables might be and decided to re-affirm that knowledge as it was is so old that it becomes a belief system. So, you have to re-learn the ropes.

That said, with regards to interconnects and speaker wire, it does provide as much of a differene as any other component aside from speakers which tend to be a bunch different. Funny, speakers are all supposed to be "the same" but in reality are far, far from it. With interconnect and cables I sat down and easily heard the difference and, it pissed me off, initially. Why? I was wrong, that's why! After I got over that, and just listened, I was thrilled with what cables can do in my system. So if that's Koolaide, I'll drink up to what I can afford.

Almarg, yes, unbalanced is a "somewhat" different circuit as in true balanced equipment, the unbalanced side is half the balanced, and often of much higher quality as to the requirements of balanced electrical needs. So I guess it's super quality unbalanced with the XP-10 and MOON W-8! With unbalanced straight through, that's often not the case, corners can be cut for costs. Not always. So far I much prefer the soundstage of the XLR. It is DEEPER, more OPEN, and WIDE! Listen for ninety minutes with XLR, and RCA is hard to go back to with my system. I'll have to drag back a tyr2 RCA lead and use that to even-up the comparison since BOTH channels are now the same level of interconnect.

Xti16, yes, I listened to the OCTAVE integrated tube amp. It was far and awy the best tubes I've heard. too. But, my ear liked the MOON W-8. Remember, though, that the C4's are warmer than the C1's by nature. I listened to the C1's to a great extent auditioning amps. Dynaudio highs are pretty sweet and would be hard to totally get wrong compared to some other products, but the interconnects and speaker cables really bring out the openness and gets the music even more out of the box. The opposite is true, too, in that the C4's bring out the hard edgy sound using 1694A RG6 interconnects with compression cold welded gold RCA's. My speaker leads went form soft (1313A type) to hard, brighter and edgy (multiple pairs premise cable derived leads). 1604A RG6 is fantastic video cable, but for audio it is left behind by the current products in a big way that are audio specific. Likewise with interconnects, general XLR cable is not cutting it.

My now HEAVILY modified 1313A leads (no jackets and leads untwisted and separated 3.0" to virtually remove capacitance and mutual inductance...leaving only self inductance) are sounding pretty good. Good enough to let me attack all the interconnects, first. This "version" of 1313A is very sweet sounding (like tubes!) so it isn't obnoxious to live with. No, it isn't tyr2 cable! That said tyr2 cable is soft in the deep bass, maybe too soft. But I'll give the nod to everything above that, so they "win".

Cables are like buying another component, figure 5K or so...at least, once it's all done, on a budget. I'll buy as good a sound as I can afford. My first issue is pre to power amp as everything sees that cord. So the tyr2 level (so far anyway) seems to be my affordable upper limit. I even moved the amp closer to the equipment rack to save a grand on the tyr2 XLR! But, the longer speaker cable may steal that away. Catch-22 for sure. Speaker leads will still only be 6 feet long.

I've "heard" about the Vahalla's, but never listened to them. The dealer got a set in (I think they are "improved"). I would like to "borrow" the whole channel(s) from my CD player to speakers and give the iterations a listen. People change leads like speakers, too, so I can keep an eye out for(realatively!)affordable interconnects maybe a grade up. But, more $$$ doesn't mean better sound. That's the hard part. I also want to service the dealer fairly since allowing an in-home audition prevent expensive mistakes. So a set of each may go his way and buy used / demo's after that.

The ANALYSIS Plus Silver are a close second to the tyr2 XLR leads. What's everyones experience in using a super high grade pre-power interconnect and using very good CD to PRE RCA's or XLR's? When do the improvements taper off? I guess I'll have to give that a go and see where it "leads" to!
jmcgrogan2's avatar
jmcgrogan2
6,346 posts
 
Wait until you figure out that power cords make a bigger difference in the sound than interconnects and speaker cables......sheesh. :)
jp1208
502 posts
 
Thanks to Jmcgrogan2 I now only have a few more payments until I own my power cords! LOL
jmcgrogan2's avatar
jmcgrogan2
6,346 posts
 
LOL! Jp1208, I've heard that you can now take out a 20 year mortgage on some power cords...hahaha
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