How do you judge your system's neutrality?

OK Bryon - I think we both have some misunderstandings about these other posts. I am truly sorry for my mischaracterizations. You have made yourself very clear, and I envy your superior ability to do so. Let me try once more to be equally clear - I feel that you are refusing to consider the possibility that "neutrality" does not exist. This is what I was trying to get at by saying in that previous post that where we differ is on whether or not you have proposed conditions that reliably indicate the presence of a condition. I still feel that you have not presented any conditions that NECESSARILY indicate the presence of "neutrality." This is my fundamental objection to your operationalization - IMO, you are attempting to operationalize something that does not exist. This is our basic disagreement, as I see it.

That said, even if hypothetically I did accept the possibility that "neutrality" could exist, I still stand by my statement at the end of my previous post, that there are far too many variables involved for all audiophiles to ever agree even on the RELATIVE "neutrality" of any given system. You have brought up some types of distortion that can be measured, and certainly I agree that a designer of a piece of equipment can guard against these types of what you call "colorations." However, you seem to be ignoring other ways in which pieces of equipment can sound different from each other that have been brought up, for instance my two preamps in the same exact system where one was warmer sounding than the other (and yes, the term "warmer" is vague as well, but does I think have more meaning to most audiophiles than "neutral"). Still unanswered is my question, how can you know which preamp is more relatively "neutral"? I feel the inability to answer this question makes the operationalization at best not very useful in actual practice, no matter how attractive it may be in theory. I was trying very hard to keep this from turning into another subjectivist/objectivist type debate (I think I only used the term objectivist when responding to someone else who used it - I dislike such labels). I agree with Newbee that this would be far less interesting. Unfortunately, it seems that perhaps that is what our disagreement really is, as you seem to be ignoring almost all of the subjective elements of the posters who have disagreed with you, Kijanki's in particular.

I hope that the above is clear. Though I disagree with your operationalization, I do admire the thought behind it, and your ability to express it, and I really have enjoyed this discussion, and I am truly sorry for any misrepresentations I have made. Ever since I joined this site, I find I have actually learned quite a bit more from those I disagree with, and I have definitely learned some things from you in the course of this thread. This type of conversation/debate is always thought-provoking and helps to clarify one's own ideas/perceptions. It reminds me of what one of my horn teachers used to say - you should always learn SOMETHING anytime you hear someone else play, even if it is only one more way not to do it.

Byron replied to my last post with questions:

(i) What about situations where you change a component and you get the result that SOME characteristics have improved and SOME have stayed constant. Is that an improvement in neutrality?

(ii) Can you say more about the phrase “carried in the direction of preference”? That seems like a Subjectivist thing to say, but you are an avowed Objectivist with respect to neutrality. I am not “holding you to” your previous posts. It’s that I get the sense that you are STILL an Objectivist, and so I am confused by the distinctly Subjectivist wording of your operationalization.

The answer below includes consideration of some ideas from the last few posts. To address question (ii) first:

The Objectivist defines neutrality as an absence of coloration, yet may refrain from absolutism by observing that neutrality is in practice an incremental process toward an unattainable goal. Perhaps we should call the Objectivist who is also an Absolutist with respect to believing that it is feasible to arrive finally at the goal of neutrality(wire with gain, absolute sound, etc.) an EXTREME OBJECTIVIST. In the opposing corner, the Subjectivist takes on more diverse incarnations. His principal certainty is that colorations are inevitable. He believes that there are good and bad colorations. While he knows what he likes, he may believe that making a fine distinction between good and bad that is generally acceptable to others, is difficult or irrelevant in view of varying listener tastes & priorities and the overwhelming complexity of systems variables. Finally, he may adopt a wholly relativistic POV by asserting that even a basic distinction between good and bad is impossible-- in which case he is an EXTREME SUBJECTIVIST. At such an extreme he may become hopelessly vague about distinctions and mystical about equipment. Such Extreme Subjectivism may reasonably be banished from this forum with a boom box and Ipod as a parting gift, if not a 100 lb. solid copper chassis with a foot tall KR tube...

A close analysis of preference behaviors may be used to escape the irreconcilable differences of objectivism and subjectivism. For the Subjectivist, any choice of preferred coloration, if examined critically, is by definition a compromise that accepts both appealing and unappealing colorations. The truth of this assertion follows from the inevitable limitations of electronics. The propagation of a desirable coloration is necessarily accompanied by the propagation of undesirable coloration. Objectivists and subjectivists can agree on this point, as both experience restless compromise in the selection of audio components. On the other hand, for the Objectivist it becomes apparent that a choice reflecting one's preference for a relatively less colored component by definition includes fewer factors that war against preference. The two view the same problem from different perspectives. The Objectivist seeks to eliminate coloration, the Subjectivist seeks to increase desirable coloration without adding undesirable coloration, and both choose components that move them in the direction of preference. However both have the burden of careful reflection upon compromises made at particular stopping points along the continuum of coloration. The subjectivist may bear an additional intellectual burden to avoid dismissing or rationalizing away some undesirable coloration in order to justify a preferred coloration.

Assuming that the many variables of the listening experience are numbered and accounted for, an answer is suggested to Bryon’s question (i): All that is necessary to signify increased neutrality is for one variable of the listening experience to advance toward one’s preference without the retreat of another other variable. If this condition is met, for the Subjectivist no coloration has been compromised by any other, and for the Objectivist a coloration has been reduced or eliminated. This UNITY of improvement evidences an ADVANCE in engineering. It is not important for the Subjectivist and the Objectivist to agree, provided that the Subjectivist is careful to watch all his variables carefully and notice when he is being betrayed by his electronics. The Objectivist is en garde to colorations by definition.

From a practical point of view, it may be argued that this condition can never be met. However my own experience in making single-variable changes inside components suggests otherwise. In practice the majority of single-variable mods made on the grounds of solid engineering practice tend to move all variables of listening in a positive direction. This reinforces the idea of LINKED VARIABLES. Admittedly however, it is difficult (though not impossible) to extend this idea to a complex system of multiple components with a greater number of engineering variables.

what is the purpose of assessing neutrality, if the goal of listening is musical enjoyment?

is this a philosophical endeavor or is there another reason for this question ?

Mrtennis, For me the interesting aspect is deconstruction of the notion of coloration, which is often left unexamined by subjectivists focused purely on aesthetic enjoyment. Unlike a live acoustic performance, audio playback is at the intersection of art and engineering, and as such may deserve its own vocabulary to translate between art and science as precisely as possible. In addition, there is a certain tension between art and science that may be best examined through philosophy.