How do you judge your system's neutrality?



Here’s an answer I’ve been kicking around: Your system is becoming more neutral whenever you change a system element (component, cable, room treatment, etc.) and you get the following results:

(1) Individual pieces of music sound more unique.
(2) Your music collection sounds more diverse.

This theory occurred to me one day when I changed amps and noticed that the timbres of instruments were suddenly more distinct from one another. With the old amp, all instruments seemed to have a common harmonic element (the signature of the amp?!). With the new amp, individual instrument timbres sounded more unique and the range of instrument timbres sounded more diverse. I went on to notice that whole songs (and even whole albums) sounded more unique, and that my music collection, taken as a whole, sounded more diverse.

That led me to the following idea: If, after changing a system element, (1) individual pieces of music sound more unique, and (2) your music collection sounds more diverse, then your system is contributing less of its own signature to the music. And less signature means more neutral.

Thoughts?

P.S. This is only a way of judging the relative neutrality of a system. Judging the absolute neutrality of a system is a philosophical question for another day.

P.P.S. I don’t believe a system’s signature can be reduced to zero. But it doesn’t follow from that that differences in neutrality do not exist.

P.P.P.S. I’m not suggesting that neutrality is the most important goal in building an audio system, but in my experience, the changes that have resulted in greater neutrality (using the standard above) have also been the changes that resulted in more musical enjoyment.
bryoncunningham
Dgarretson, thanks for the clarification. I actually didn't know about the Holt dictionary. The only place I had previously seen common audiophile terms defined was in Robert Harley's book. I'm sure there isn't much difference between those two, anyway. That Holt book would be fascinating reading. I find it amusing that he defines "neutral" as free from coloration, as you guys are, but then feels the need to define "uncolored" as free from AUDIBLE coloration. This is especially funny to me coming from the guy who defined "subjectivist" reviewing! Harley's book also speaks of the objectivist/subjectivist divide in the same sense as Holt does, by the way. It was my understanding, though, that Harry Pearson was the one who defined many of these terms originally, and he was certainly the one who defined the concept of "the absolute sound."

Getting back more on topic, I have one comment on your observation that "To distinguish problems in playback from problems in recording, the trained listener merely needs to listen to a wide variety of recordings on the same playback system." While I do agree with this as far as it goes, this is only part of it. I believe the trained listener must also do the opposite - listen to the same few recordings that one is very familiar with on a wide variety of playback systems. This is much more useful for evaluating the playback end of the equation, while the former helps distinguish problems in recording.

However, no matter how precisely we can define various different terms and types of colorations, etc., (and I am not saying this is not valuable) people will hear many of them differently, for many different reasons. Setting aside personal preferences/reference points, one audiophile may have a much better/more trained ear than another. One could also have a better but more untrained ear than the other, a case which can really confuse the issue for both. Another example I find is all too common in the audiophile world - someone who thinks they have a good and/or trained ear, and knows quite a bit about the science behind audio products, but unfortunately doesn't actually hear very well. I'm sure we can all think of a dealer where this is the case! Others mentioned the effects of aging/hearing loss - everyone's ear, no matter what level it is/was originally, can/does/will change, for better and/or for worse. Unfortunately, as an orchestral musician I am guaranteed to lose at least 20% of my hearing over the course of my career. What sounds better to you today may not tomorrow, and this will change your perception of many types of "colorations." I guess I've said all I really have to say on the subject, though I do find the discussion of terms interesting and will continue to follow the thread.

Speaking of ear training, I would urge all audiophiles to consider taking a formal aural skills course - these are often offered as adult extension courses at music programs in large universities. This sort of ear training is much more valuable for actually listening to your music (as opposed to your system), and always leads to much more enjoyment of your music, no matter what type you listen to. It will also have the benefit of greatly increasing your ability to listen for your system's characteristics, especially the more musically-related ones. And it is much cheaper than a new component for your system, too, LOL! It's all about the music in the end, or should be, anyway. I have greatly enjoyed the discussion - thanks for starting the thread, Bryon!
preference for a particular coloration(s))and the general tendendency for most"audiophiles" to disagree about anything negates many of the aforementioned arguments presented so far.
Learsfool – I appreciate your thanks and I’m grateful for your participation. Though our points of view never converged, I learned a lot from our debate along the way. Your final comments about training the ear, which I think of as training the brain, are well taken. Although we didn’t discuss it much in this thread, the ear/brain is probably the most important “component” in the system.

Cbw – I have given some thought to your suggestions for revising the working definition of ‘inaccuracy.’ Here is what I came up with:

INACCURACY: An alteration to information in a component or system that eliminates, conceals, or corrupts information about the music.

Defining 'inaccuracy' in this way raises the question: How does this new concept of 'inaccuracy' relate to the concepts of 'accuracy,' 'neutrality,' and ‘resolution’? I would like to offer a new proposal about the relations among these concepts. To begin with some definitions:

ACCURACY: 1. The relative amount of information about the music presented by a component or system, comparing output to input. 2. The degree of absence of inaccuracies.

INACCURACY: An alteration to information in a component or system that eliminates, conceals, or corrupts information about the music.

NEUTRALITY: The degree of absence of coloration within a component or system.

COLORATION: An inaccuracy audible as a non-random sonic signature.

RESOLUTION: The absolute limit of information about the music that a component or system can present.

These concepts form some of the basic units of a set of equations that express the relations among accuracy, neutrality, and resolution:

1. CA = (1/L+N+D)
2. CN = (1/DoC)
3. CR = CA + FR
4. SA = SoCA
5. SN = SoCN
6. SR = SA + FR

Where…

CA = Component Accuracy
CN = Component Neutrality
CR = Component Resolution
SA = System Accuracy
SN = System Neutrality
SR = System Resolution
FR = Format Resolution
L = Loss
N = Noise
D = Distortion
So = “Sum of”
Do = “Degree of”

Taking them one at a time…

1. CA = (1/L+N+D). A COMPONENT’S ACCURACY is determined by the amount of loss, noise, and distortion within the component. More specifically, a component's accuracy is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL to its loss, noise, and distortion. The other way of saying the same thing: A component's inaccuracy is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to its loss (the elimination of information), noise (the concealment of information), and distortion (the corruption of information).

2. CN = (1/DoC). A COMPONENT’S NEUTRALITY is determined by its degree of coloration. More specifically, a component's neutrality is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL to its degree of coloration. This equation was proposed by Cbw in an earlier post.

3. CR = CA + FR. A COMPONENT’S RESOLUTION is determined by the accuracy of the component and the format resolution of the source. Specifically, a component's resolution is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to its accuracy and the format resolution.

4. SA = SoCA. A SYSTEM’S ACCURACY is determined by the sum of its components’ accuracy. Specifically, they are DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL.

5. SN = SoCN. A SYSTEM’S NEUTRALITY is determined by the sum of its components’ neutrality. Specifically, they are DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL.

6. SR = SA + FR. A SYSTEM’S RESOLUTION is determined by the system's accuracy and the format resolution of the source. Specifically, a system's resolution is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to its accuracy and the format resolution.

I'm not really proposing a deep mathematical relationship among these concepts. The equations are more of a mathematical analogy for describing the logical and conceptual relations among these categories.
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Hi Bryon - I agree that this has been an interesting debate. I shared this thread with my brother today, who is a sociologist and fellow audiophile, and he had a take on it that I think you and others will find interesting, so I have decided to share it. I should say that he considers himself more in the subjectivist camp, though he did say that Dgarretson's description of an extreme subjectivist sounded about the same as a post-modernist, and post-modernism is "crap," as he put it. He agrees with us that the moderates in both camps differ mostly in method.

He also agrees with me that "neutrality" does not exist, and in fact came up with the term I had been searching for. His opinion is that you are engaging in "reification," which is defined as the treating of an abstract concept as if it has real material existence (I should add that I checked with my uncle, who used to teach philosophy/logic, and he corrected me that this is not actually a logical fallacy, as I had thought).

He also talked about something similar to what Dgarretson did, that objectivists sometimes are forced to make subjective judgements and then try to operationalize their ideas. Many objectivist criteria are in actuality subjective, as the measures they come up with often lack "validity" (is the measure measuring what it is supposed to) or "reliability" (will different people using the same instrument get the same result under the same conditions).

His opinion is that many measures for audio "colorations" would not be "reliable" in the above sense because of the lack of agreement on terms. He added that even with agreement on criteria for measurements, there is the human ear factor we have discussed. He commented that in disciplines like sociology or psychology it is possible to come up with measures that are valid and reliable in the above senses, but that in music, and I will now quote him directly "taste confounds quality, and people mess those up." He has actually written a fascinating article on this taste/quality issue, entitled "Music as Evil: Deviance and Norm Promotion in Classical Music," in which he applies the sociology of deviance (one of his specialties) to the sociology of high-art, specifically music. I think I could provide a link to anyone interested, with his permission.

His are essentially the same arguments I have been making, though expressed quite a bit differently - he is certainly more scientifically minded than I am. I hope I have represented his ideas adequately. I would love to hear your thoughts!