Out of Control

Yes, I agree prices are out of control in the sense that they do not necessarily represent the cost required to manufacture many of these products. But, this happens often, particularly with luxury items. Price is truly set by what buyers are willing to pay to own something. Apparently some are very much swayed by those who tell us that product A is the best available. Remember also that the High End Companies, whether large or small are often set up to thrive on the sale of a very small number of units. They are anything but mass market operations. That means they can do quite well in selling a small number of very highly priced (vastly overpriced?) units while putting a substantial amount of money into marketing (read Stereophile, Soundstage, etc.). That said, my participation on the 'net these last four years has led me to understand that there are many people who can accurately assess the sound qualities of any particular unit. I have also found that many non-audiophiles can do this easily as well. They may lack the audiophile "vocabulary" to describe what they hear, but they certainly hear it. In other words, many of us can at least agree on what it sounds like. We may not agree on whether that is good, or whether product A with its sonic signature is better than product B. There is another group however, perhaps which contains both audio enthusiasts as well as non-audio enthusiasts (note that I didn't call them Audiophiles), which have not yet figured out why one amp sounds "better" than another to audiophiles. These people either haven't heard the difference between these two amps or, if they have heard the difference, don't see the differences as important to the reproduction of the sound. I don't look down on these people. Who is to say that they don't enjoy the music as much as I do while (hopefully) they spend very little on sound equipment? However, there are those of us that don't need double blind testing to identify what we hear. I do suspect that if you forced all who claim to be audiophiles to participate in one well-designed double-blind test, you would find that they fall into three categories: those who definitely cannot tell the difference between products, those who definitely can, and those who sometimes can. If you played two well-known amps (or cables) in a double-blind test for me, using the same program material, I am sure that I, like many people here on Audiogon, would have little trouble in distinguishing the two. Even though we would be able to identify the differences, the listening panel would likely not agree on which sounds best. I agree that the most expensive products would often be found to be not the best for all the reasons given earlier. That is why when reading someone's estimation of a particular amp or cable, when they state it's much better than product B without stating why, I find it absolutely infuriating. It gives no information to simply state one product is better than another, since we all have our own biases. And if you can't state why or are afraid to do so, you need to keep your opinion to yourself.

Gregm, seems something has gotten lost here in going from the general to the specific. My second post to you was made on the belief that you had said that you heard huge differences between the two sets of mono blocks I had taken has an example. As it turns out your statement was, from what I get in your reply to my various questions, of a more general nature. Seems the tone and content of my intervention here displeased a number of people. My contention is not that there are no differences. My belief is that most of these differences are a question of degree, certainly not of kind, and usually very few degrees at that. What I had in mind was more on the topic of power amps and not on differences between one complete system at a given price level with another at an entirely and much greater price level. I still believe that some components are easier to design and build than others, that with some parts in the audio chain a plateau has been reached and that further developments are less likely than in other areas. Power amps, to me are the prime example of components that may have reached a plateau (I don't know if digital amps will change my idea on this), whereas speakers are the prime example of an area where research and development would yield the greatest benefits. I am more apt to believe in considerable differences between two speaker systems than between two power amps. The other source for my questions is twofold. Firstly, I keep hearing comments on equipment that is not run of the mill and always wonder where on God's green earth did the person actually listen to such equipment. I, maybe unfortunately, jump to the conclusion that it was either in a store or at a show. From experience, I can tell you that I always feel under some degree of pressure in a shop and that I don't trust my judgment is that kind of an environment. Insofar as shows are concerned, I feel, maybe wrongly, that they are even worst in that your not dealing with one retailer, but with a whole bunch of manufacturers and distributors. Talk about for the frying pan to the fire. Secondly, the other aspect which opened up on the "dreaded subject", is my belief that we are imminently subject to the power of suggestion and that it should be avoided in the making of a decision which is just a notch below the purchase of an automobile. I may have imposed a standard of conduct that should only be required of persons making their living reviewing equipment, I don't know. In closing let me say that I feel entirely justified in encouraging audiophiles to use a greater degree of rigour and method in appraising equipment. This is echoed, I think, in a thread that I seem to have seen were someone was asking what type of music should be used to evaluate equipment or, I may be mistaken, speakers. Some say any music the person knows and likes. I can't disagree with that. No one should be forced to listen to music he/she doesn't like. But, on the other hand, I think that this is not a very useful or valid answer. I think one should have a variety of recordings, calling upon different qualities of any given system (including some poorly recorded stuff to see if the system may not be even too revealing in some instances), and that once chosen, a person should stick to these and play the same tracks to avoid confusion and to be able to form some kind of valid judgment. If this is too strict a procedure, I do believe that we have very little to gain in sharing our opinions. I believe well reasoned and enlightened opinions are the only ones worth sharing and considering, and, no, I don't profess to hold a patent on this. I trust that my esteemed (or is that steamed) colleague, disciple of Themis, will agree. Regards.

Pbb is correct. Blind testing does not have to include becoming stodgy and humorless. Some of us like listening to music, every now and then, (in between test tones.)

I guess this means I am banished as well.

Take care,

Charles F. Daniell, D.V.M
Brunswick, GA

Gallaine, I did what? I don't even own a gauntlet. I have not waived math since high school, and have never waived it as a sceptre. Nothing so aristocratic for me. I like the expression "arts & sciences" though and I think it applies to audio equipment quite well. I won't trouble you with a dissertation on trees falling in the forest with nobody there to listen. I have no intention of talking about paradigms or the lack thereof. I will not even mention that a bad theory is better than none at all. There are many ways of getting at the truth. When it comes to understanding the physical phenomena that surround us, I doubt anything has rivalled science thus far. Magic thought certainly hasn't. I would merely suggest that audiophiles should show some method to their own madness and have some sort of basic procedure when evaluating equipment so that the fewest variables are introduced. Maybe this standard should only apply to professional reviewers, I don't know. It seems to me unfortunate that comments, good or bad, can be made about equipment heard on the fly or in less than good conditions (unknown room, unfamiliar music, changing the music used every time and the list could go on). By the way, I do not own, nor I have I ever owned, an oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, calibrated microphone, SPL meter, fast Fourier analysis computer or other such piece of equipment or an ABX box for that matter. I would certainly appreciate it though if the manufacturer of the equipment I buy does and uses them, and interprets the results properly. If the manufacturer stops there we may not have the sound we want, we do appreciate that the component be evaluated by actual humans, listening to music and that suitable tweaking be done to have it perform at its best. I simply doubt the manufacturer could get to the tweaking stage without benefit of the hard data to start with.

If I might insinuate myself into this conversation between Pbb and Gregm, I would say that I don't object to double-blind testing. It certainly is a means to guard against the power of suggestion. However, I don't see that it much applies to listening evaluations of amps or any other audiophile equipment. Many of us are pretty sure of what we hear, so any double-blind test would be for the non-believers like Pbb rather than for us. However, I will gladly participate in any double-blind amp evaluation test that Pbb would like to set up. If he would just send the airline ticket to me so that I can be at the location of this test ... As far as the sound quality of power amps are concerned, two amps, both highly respected and of similar quality quite often sound very different, in other words easily recognizable from one another, using double-blind testing or not. I would agree that speakers show more sonic variation than amplifiers, but amplifiers are still easily discernable and identifiable from one another. I think that because amps "measure" much better than speakers, they are considered to be much more accurate reproducers of sound. And, if they are more accurate, they must sound the same, very similar, or at least so similar that few can tell the difference between two high quality amps. I think that the mistake here is that what is measured for either power amplifiers or speaker systems is not necessarily the final determinant of what the human ear can hear or all the aural information the human brain can process. Eighty to ninety percent of the measurements taken today for amplifiers (or speakers) they were measuring 50 years ago and while amplifiers have improved by orders of magnitude, they still don't sound live or anywhere near perfect, or even that much alike. So Pbb, let us know where the double-blind test is to be held.