Is the Teres a

Dear Jean: *** " Whether it’s called PRaT, or whatever, aren’t we all looking for the visceral, emotion-filled, faithful reproduction of the stuff in those grooves? " ***

I agree totally with 4yanx.

*** " this is the best way to evaluate the performance of a turntable combination rather than introducing various flavors inherent in tonearms and cartridges and comparing those. " ***

I agree too with Lugnut.

*** " mean truly accurate speed, in practice and playing a real LP) being seminal in this regard. If these Big Heavyweight turntables fail to recover PRaT (as any do, I had the Maplenoll Ariadne with 40-pound platter which was less musical than the Athena with the lighter 15-pound platter it replaced), it is because their speed stability is in fact not stable " ****

Jean this is not true : The PRaT or not PRaT of any turntable depends of many factors: speed stability, rumble, bearing type ( air bearing, magnetic bearing, oil bearing, non oil bearing, etc ), platter material ( wood, acrilyc, metal ), heavy mass type or other type, belt or thread drive ( thread are the best for heavy mass metal platters. Not very good with wood/acrilyc ones . ) suspended or not suspended, in which kind of plataform is mounted, which tonearm, which cartridge, which phono cables, which phono preamp, which speakers, which amplifiers, which recordings, etc...

As you can see it is a very complex subject and the speed stability is only one of the parameters, yes is a very important ( critical ) one but as I told: is only one.

The must important issue on what Jean already told us is that we have to remember that the turntable " exist " first because we have to retrivial the recording information through it ( the only way ) and second that for do that in an accurate way ( accurate to the recording ) it has to run exactly at 33 1/3 or 45 rpm. Any deviation it will be audible an out of place: it will be inaccurate and if does not exist that speed stability we will hearing a different recording ( due to timing. Jean you are right in this issue ). That speed stability has to be in the long and short run.
Which will be the criteria range for that speed stability?, well at least the turntable has to have a speed accuracy of: +,- 0.01%. Less of this " figure " is not permisible for a high-end turntable. The best ones, like: Walker, top Basis, top VPI, Verdier, Acoustic Signature, Well Tempered, Top Sota, Nothingham, Micro Seiki, Maplenol, meets and surpass this speed criteria ( example: Walker: 0.002% ). All these units are belt/thread drive systems. The direct drive systems easily meets that speed criteria: Technics SP 10 MK 2/3, Denon DP 80/100,: 0.001% ( The Sirius that is a direct drive TT obviuosly is at the top of the target ).

Now, this speed stability depends on many issues: bearing type, platter balance, platter weight type, motor quality, etc..., but all things the same, the difference will be on the: power supply. Take a look on the power supply ( some are stand alone units, like Walker and Acoustic Signature TTs. ) and you can see how elaborate are the circuits and then you can understand why it is so important and critical for speed accuracy the power supply design.

Now, all of you: your turntable meet, at least, the 0.01% speed accuracy criteria ?. If not, you are in problems, I really mean: the music reproduction is in serious problems.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

4yanx,

My LP12 is not the be all and end all in analog. Far from it. It is a solid performer though and in my system it is not the weakest link in the chain. I still have it after all these years simply because I have no compelling reason to replace it. I haven't a clue what I would buy if I were shopping for a new table. In the price range I would be in I would probably be looking at a Teres bearing, motor, speed controller and battery power. I could easily make the rest. The only point I was trying to make was that the original master tape would be the control and the contenders in this competition would be trying to be most faithful to that control.

No, you've taken me all wrong, Pat, or I wasn't clear. What I meant was that with all this talk of shoot-outs between TABLES, it's the wonder folks weren't clamoring for a shoot-out between R2R decks before using one to compare to the Linn table - meaning that if the Linn equaled the R2R being used SOMEONE would be bound to say, "but if you used this other R2R.... :-O

I agree with what your saying in the a comparison to the master would be revealing.

Hi Raul, just a couple of notes to add. I will re-iterate that I never said or wrote that PRaT (or timing, or whatever...;-)) was the ONLY consideration, but the prime one, or "critical" one as you wrote. We differ, or divide on the following issue: while you seem to trust the measurements being offered by the various manufacturers, I don't, I think there is something wrong with the testing method, rendering the measurements moot. Which is to say that the 'tables in practice, playing real records with actual music, cartridges and so on (a dramatic stylus profile will cause more stylus drag and thus speed deviation than an easy conical one, to name but one possibility) suffer far larger speed deviations than they do in the lab, whose measurements do not reflect reality. Apart from that pretty fundamental issue, I agree with most of what you have to say, materials do their share in highlighting or damaging timing. And in the DD sweepstakes, I have found that I prefer the sound of the older big servo-controlled DDs like my Sony 2250 and a Technics SL1100 I have, both of which approximate the sound of a Linn LP12 (full of PRaT and flow) to the drier and more precise, but less rhythmic sound of the SP10 MKII. This too, I attribute to a speed instability which is falling below the radar of the testing method, which I believe to be as full of holes as a corporate document or a politcal speech.

Speaking of LP12s, I love the sound of classic 3-point suspensions, Pat, and when they play (I keep a modded AR-XA and Ariston RD11S around), I get immersed in the music and take a vacation from audio neurosis. They are, however, very agile, smooth and lush and extract an astonishing amount of information, and one could get neurotic if one was really determined ;-). In fact, ALL vinyl spinners blow my mind when I get them to perform properly, including my humble Connoisseur BD2 with Pickering cartridge (a total mind-blowing blast, cheap fun for an afternoon). After all these years, I still can't quite believe that a rock dragged through a squiggle can reproduce all those beautiful instruments and singers in my room. Awe.

Dear Jean: I understand your concern about, but I think that we have to trust in the manufacturers measurements. Other way we will have to do that job for our self: it is almost impossible.

Yes, we can trust in our ears ( brain ) too, but I think that in that subject we have to be objective ( technical measurements ) and let our subjective appreciation yest like that a : subjective appreciation.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.