Copper for Solid State / Silver for Tubes ?

Bear. We all should be as lucky as you to hear silver and copper cables of identical geometries (what I referred to as "cabling patterns") in order to assess differences. The kinds of controlled conditions you employed are necessary to be able to make dependable predictions, such as how a cable is LIKELY to sound in one's system. Your expertise in this matter certainly speaks for itself. However, I have often enough heard TUBE gear with SILVER cables sound, not sweet on the top end, but painfully BRIGHT, GLASSY, and IRRITATING. I have also heard silver sound sweet, airy, and extended on tranisistor preamp/amp combinations. I still stand by the statement that one cannot dependably predict that B-E-C-A-U-S-E a preamp/amp combination is T-U-B-E (or ss), SILVER (copper) WILL work better. Not all audio salesmen (high end not excluded) are as knowledgeable as you as to WHEN the metal (silver or copper) emerges as a salient factor. I have had high end salesmen tell me that silver will be "brighter" without ever asking me what preamp, power amp and speaker combinations I was using. I have owned several different tube preamps over the last several years (Melos SHA-1, Audible Illusions L-1, VAC, Music Reference RM-5, and sonic frontiers SFL-2. The same silver IC inserted between preamp and power amps (VTL Tiny Triodes) did not result in a consistently, sweeter, airier, top end. Three of the six tubed preamps produced a sweeter, more extended high end with six nine's copper IC's. Just because all of these preamps were TUBED, did not mean they were all the same in input/output impedances, gain, frequency response, etc. In fact, WHERE and HOW the tubes are used in the circuit - as a buffer, in the output stage, etc. differs among "tube" preamps. Some tube preamps have more in common with SS preamps than other tube preamps, the tubes only performing a non-critical (tube) function in the circuit design. You are obviously aware of this, noting that SE (single-ended) tube designs differ from push-pull tube designs. In a SE design, where the tubes are a major factor for the character of the sound, just changing the output tubes can result in a desire to change interconnects to "soften" or "tighten-up" the high end or bottom end. The original question posted was a reference to a high end salesman's generalization (more like a universal) that ALL "tubes sound better with silver, and the implication that ALL "ss sounds better with copper", without taking into account that tube gear may have more variablity in design within its own "species". Some "tube" designs use tubes for "show" and are really nothing more than "camouflaged" ss designs. The point being that generalizations such as "tubes sound better with..." or "ss sounds better with..." are not really dependably reliable in helping us to select cables. The best thing a salesman can do in guiding us is to give us a bunch of cables of different geometries, to insert into our own systems, and let us and arrive at our own conclusions. I know of nothing in the sudio world that generates as much controversy as cables. In fact, many reviewers won't even review cables anymore because of all the variables that are involved.

Richgib wrote:

Bear. We all should be as lucky as you to hear silver and copper cables of identical
geometries (what I referred to as "cabling patterns") in order to assess
differences. The kinds of controlled conditions you employed are necessary to be
able to make dependable predictions, such as how a cable is LIKELY to sound in
one's system. Your expertise in this matter certainly speaks for itself. However, I
have often enough heard TUBE gear with SILVER cables sound, not sweet on the
top end, but painfully BRIGHT, GLASSY, and IRRITATING. I have also heard
silver sound sweet, airy, and extended on tranisistor preamp/amp combinations.
I still stand by the statement that one cannot dependably predict that
B-E-C-A-U-S-E a preamp/amp combination is T-U-B-E (or ss), SILVER
(copper) WILL work better.

* * *

I agree that one cannot predict what will sound "better." However, the philosophy that I have is to attempt to limit the colorations and sonic signatures in a system. That means that in the best case you are not looking for a cable to make a preamp/amp/speaker combo "sound right" at all.

In practical terms, this reduces to iterative refinement to create a signal path and system that is relatively free of artifacts.So, the Silver Lightning interconnects come out of this effort to keep things free of artifacts, sonic signatures and well balanced.

Also, you say "tubes" there is a marked difference between tube topologies. The two main differentials are triode vs. pentode and feedback vs. ZFB (no feedback). ESPECIALLY for the latter there is a huge, monster difference in the way they measure and the way they sound.

Pentodes, especially in power amps with FB tend to impart a signature that is uniquely "pentode."

To go farther into your comments, I agree, *in general* "silver" interconnects do subjectively sound "tinkly" on the top - not actually brighter per se. IMHO, these interconnects are imparting their own sonic signature upon the signal and do not meet my criteria for a proper interconnect! Silver Lightning does not do this, it maintains a very natural timbre and balance across the spectrum - and is perhaps the difference between it and all others.

I can not speak to the results that you've gotten when swapping cables - again, the results that you got may have more to do with the capacitance of the cables loading the output section of your various preamps than with the copper vs. silver aspect of the cables tried. This is very likely.

I agree too that there is nothing set in stone when it comes to preferences and the way that people hear things. Also there is no hard and fast "rule" for what you will hear with copper vs. silver in *a given system.* But in general, IF you have a system that is "clean enough" there is a clear trend when comparing *only* the differences between copper and silver, in terms of the sonic signature that is heard.

It is this trend that has gotten parroted by the hype salespeople. IMHO, blind application of half truths is merely a crap shoot. So Caveat Emptor!!

_-_-bear

Twl,check the website: www.interlinkhouse.com.They have a gold interconnect called PGS that is developing quite a following.I have tried a few good silver interconnects on my solid state system with poor results.They're extremely transparent with incredibly detailed highs but the end result is listener's fatigue.The harmonics and tonality to me just don't compete with a good copper cord.But then again a good silver cord may be the ticket for you.I have a Stealth CWS pure silver single RCA I'll sell you cheap.

This is an interesting post. I have both SS and tube systems (tube is in development). I own the original Pure Note Epsilon pure silver cables and their newer Reference (hybrid copper-silver), www.purenote.com. On my SS system the hybrid version is clearly superior, no HF tilt and true midrange. Yet on my tube setup the pure silver version is much more detailed. My findings are that the tube system is masking the highs making the silver version sound less bright. I am convinced that alloyed wires are a good balance in cable design.

Shak73, as Garfish said, in general I agree with you. I own mostly SS equipment over the years and I have tried several silver cables, without much success. They seemed to bright, or etched for my taste. Copper seems warmer. I've heard silver cables sounding wonderful in friends tube based systems though. I'm sure there are exceptions, but IMHO overall, yes, copper for SS and silver for tubes is the way to go.