Wow, I sure sparked some good discourse. Thank you all for your varied inputs. Some clarifications and comments:
> My intent of listing the 1980 msrp of my TT/cart was only to underscore these were not high-end-priced components of the day, purely mid-fi. I was only vaguely aware of the emerging Dynavectors and Linns, and certainly didn't have the college budget to consider them.
> Twl and Dougdeacon are right to add inflation and lower volumes, such that my '80 rig may be the equivalent price-point to the P25/Grado today. Twl suggests a $10K '80 car might be $30K today, but the new car is superior in every way. And that was much of my question, I'd have expected 20yrs of hifi tech to make for a superior-sounding unit, even at the same price-point.
> I never suggested the P25/Grado are the pinnacle of record playing, just that they are both so universally well-regarded at that price-point that I could expect them to define the entryway into current high-end vinyl playback. Perhaps I'd get the improvements I sought by spending just a bit more on say a Scout and Shelter 901, perhaps I gotta spend $5K+. Pbb is right that my expectations were formed primarily by the audiophile press raving about these two items being so close to the best at a more-reasonable price: having not seriously auditioned record players - hard to do as you know - I had to take such universal acclaim as having some truth to it. But they're so often driven for insecure audiophiles to buy buy buy...
> Zaikesman hit the crux of my post on the head. I'm impressed that the '80 Thorens/Ortofon (T/O) sounds as *good* as the Rega/Grado (R/G), but amazed that they sound essentially the *same*. Beyond being a generation or more apart, they address playback so differently: the T/O with a heavy, dead, suspended base, DC motor, very light carbon-composite tonearm, and light, highly-compliant mm-derived cart with a mundane cantilever and stylus. The R/G has a rigid composite plinth, AC motor, heavier, deader tonearm, and a moving-iron cart with highly-developed cantilever and stylus. All transducers (speakers, carts, headphones, mics) depend on mechanical designs and tolerancing, so there's always a much bigger sonic difference than between similar electronics.
> Many of the responses could be distilled into "how much has hardware really improved in the last 20 years?" Certainly speakers, all amp types, obviously digital. But even though vinyl playback has become 'precious' (marakanetz), in all areas we've seen even one person's ideas significantly influence and evolve whole areas of this industry. As sean and pbowne suggest, there *are* new and better ideas and manufacturing approaches that should result in better playback. I'm sure a current $10K record player stomps all over the best available 20 years ago.
> My $1200 BelCanto Phono1 is in a well-populated sector of phono preamps, yet I've never so much as seen it mentioned by others or the press, much less reviewed. I may be the only person who owns one. It has 40/54/60dB gain. The Grado Reference is a high-output (4.5mV) mm cart, so expects to see only 47K loading and a fixed capacitance. The BC offers just that on its 40dB setting, though offers a lot of loading options for MCs. We recently did an extensive comparison with a Pass Labs Ono. The Ono made more space and air and delicacy, the BC had more bass weight and slam. The Ono was clearly superior, but it did show that the BC was musical, uncongested, and committed no sins.
> Bomarc makes a provocative point that I'd agree with in part. Certainly in the electronics industry as a whole, the best and brightest move to where the volumes and latest technology are. But the advances in material science, resonance control, manufacturing efficiencies and tolerancing, metallurgy etc trickle down to the bottom-feeders. One regular guy with a lathe came up with the 'expressimo' offset counterweight, which most mfgs are now integrating into their tonearms. It gave me solid sonic improvements across the board when I installed it on the Rega. If the P25 sounded as much better over the Thorens as it did with the OE vs offset counterweight, I would never have made this post, and retired the Thorens. Now, how to get an offset counterweight for the Thorens??
> Ultrakaz and lugnut, I did go back and relisten to the OE felt mat. The differences remained subtle to me as they did when I got the donut mat. The felt mat sounded smoother, the donut mat had better microdynamics. Small changes, and not nearly enough to alter the attributes of these two rigs. I had the Grado in the Thorens for 6 months, and it sounded OK, though I did no A/B with the Ortofon despite having a 2nd dedicated tonearm wand with it already mounted. I had to compromise the Thorens tonearm to achieve the greater effective mass req'd by the Grado, and not the best mounting setup for the wood-bodied cart. I bought the P25 as I thought the Thorens was preventing the Grado from sounding as good as it could. And it did sound somewhat better in the P25, then confirming my belief I was hearing years of TT evolution. But what started this thread was my putting the original T/O against the modded R/G. As mentioned, cart alignment was ideal in both cases. I don't have the energy (this month) to put the Ortofon in the Rega...
> Last night I had a very-keen-eared non-audiophile come over with fresh ears, his own music, and no equipment preconceptions. With matched levels and rpms it was immediately clear to him, and later to me, that the T/O walked all over the R/G. More percussive and natural dynamics everywhere, greater bass slam, weight and articulation, somewhat better detail retrieval, more immediacy, presence and 'rawness'. The R/G was dynamically muted, more polite and subdued, with a slightly-more-refined top end. Not as night and day as I make it sound, but more noticeable with another pair of ears. Ideally mix the T/O dynamics with the R/G refinement, but overall the T/O is clearly the more musically engaging when out of audiophile mode. Pbb, sean and slappy are right that my expectations may have biased my ears: my original post would have been less about the identical sound and more about the T/O superiority, even more counter-intuitive to me.
> I'm heartened nobody pointed out my doing something very wrong with the Rega, my system, my observations or my excessive wordiness. Though I spent far less time summarizing all this here than the listening that led up to this!
> So my bottom-line is now clear. Sell the entire P25/GradoReference/mats/counterweights back through audiogon as a ready-to-play turnkey record player, hopefully to someone who doesn't peruse these forums:-) Sorry Elizabeth, much more than $300. Down the road, see what I have to spend to get the vinyl upgrade I expected, though my stated system goals did not include chasing the ultimate reproduction, just balanced agreeable musicality, and it appears I had that all along! Plus I get to keep semi-auto operation and all the conveniences I was beginning to miss with the Rega...
> Again, thanks to all who posted, I'll be filing a hardcopy of this thread next to the Thorens for all those who ask why I have such an old POS TT in an otherwise modern highish-end system!
> My intent of listing the 1980 msrp of my TT/cart was only to underscore these were not high-end-priced components of the day, purely mid-fi. I was only vaguely aware of the emerging Dynavectors and Linns, and certainly didn't have the college budget to consider them.
> Twl and Dougdeacon are right to add inflation and lower volumes, such that my '80 rig may be the equivalent price-point to the P25/Grado today. Twl suggests a $10K '80 car might be $30K today, but the new car is superior in every way. And that was much of my question, I'd have expected 20yrs of hifi tech to make for a superior-sounding unit, even at the same price-point.
> I never suggested the P25/Grado are the pinnacle of record playing, just that they are both so universally well-regarded at that price-point that I could expect them to define the entryway into current high-end vinyl playback. Perhaps I'd get the improvements I sought by spending just a bit more on say a Scout and Shelter 901, perhaps I gotta spend $5K+. Pbb is right that my expectations were formed primarily by the audiophile press raving about these two items being so close to the best at a more-reasonable price: having not seriously auditioned record players - hard to do as you know - I had to take such universal acclaim as having some truth to it. But they're so often driven for insecure audiophiles to buy buy buy...
> Zaikesman hit the crux of my post on the head. I'm impressed that the '80 Thorens/Ortofon (T/O) sounds as *good* as the Rega/Grado (R/G), but amazed that they sound essentially the *same*. Beyond being a generation or more apart, they address playback so differently: the T/O with a heavy, dead, suspended base, DC motor, very light carbon-composite tonearm, and light, highly-compliant mm-derived cart with a mundane cantilever and stylus. The R/G has a rigid composite plinth, AC motor, heavier, deader tonearm, and a moving-iron cart with highly-developed cantilever and stylus. All transducers (speakers, carts, headphones, mics) depend on mechanical designs and tolerancing, so there's always a much bigger sonic difference than between similar electronics.
> Many of the responses could be distilled into "how much has hardware really improved in the last 20 years?" Certainly speakers, all amp types, obviously digital. But even though vinyl playback has become 'precious' (marakanetz), in all areas we've seen even one person's ideas significantly influence and evolve whole areas of this industry. As sean and pbowne suggest, there *are* new and better ideas and manufacturing approaches that should result in better playback. I'm sure a current $10K record player stomps all over the best available 20 years ago.
> My $1200 BelCanto Phono1 is in a well-populated sector of phono preamps, yet I've never so much as seen it mentioned by others or the press, much less reviewed. I may be the only person who owns one. It has 40/54/60dB gain. The Grado Reference is a high-output (4.5mV) mm cart, so expects to see only 47K loading and a fixed capacitance. The BC offers just that on its 40dB setting, though offers a lot of loading options for MCs. We recently did an extensive comparison with a Pass Labs Ono. The Ono made more space and air and delicacy, the BC had more bass weight and slam. The Ono was clearly superior, but it did show that the BC was musical, uncongested, and committed no sins.
> Bomarc makes a provocative point that I'd agree with in part. Certainly in the electronics industry as a whole, the best and brightest move to where the volumes and latest technology are. But the advances in material science, resonance control, manufacturing efficiencies and tolerancing, metallurgy etc trickle down to the bottom-feeders. One regular guy with a lathe came up with the 'expressimo' offset counterweight, which most mfgs are now integrating into their tonearms. It gave me solid sonic improvements across the board when I installed it on the Rega. If the P25 sounded as much better over the Thorens as it did with the OE vs offset counterweight, I would never have made this post, and retired the Thorens. Now, how to get an offset counterweight for the Thorens??
> Ultrakaz and lugnut, I did go back and relisten to the OE felt mat. The differences remained subtle to me as they did when I got the donut mat. The felt mat sounded smoother, the donut mat had better microdynamics. Small changes, and not nearly enough to alter the attributes of these two rigs. I had the Grado in the Thorens for 6 months, and it sounded OK, though I did no A/B with the Ortofon despite having a 2nd dedicated tonearm wand with it already mounted. I had to compromise the Thorens tonearm to achieve the greater effective mass req'd by the Grado, and not the best mounting setup for the wood-bodied cart. I bought the P25 as I thought the Thorens was preventing the Grado from sounding as good as it could. And it did sound somewhat better in the P25, then confirming my belief I was hearing years of TT evolution. But what started this thread was my putting the original T/O against the modded R/G. As mentioned, cart alignment was ideal in both cases. I don't have the energy (this month) to put the Ortofon in the Rega...
> Last night I had a very-keen-eared non-audiophile come over with fresh ears, his own music, and no equipment preconceptions. With matched levels and rpms it was immediately clear to him, and later to me, that the T/O walked all over the R/G. More percussive and natural dynamics everywhere, greater bass slam, weight and articulation, somewhat better detail retrieval, more immediacy, presence and 'rawness'. The R/G was dynamically muted, more polite and subdued, with a slightly-more-refined top end. Not as night and day as I make it sound, but more noticeable with another pair of ears. Ideally mix the T/O dynamics with the R/G refinement, but overall the T/O is clearly the more musically engaging when out of audiophile mode. Pbb, sean and slappy are right that my expectations may have biased my ears: my original post would have been less about the identical sound and more about the T/O superiority, even more counter-intuitive to me.
> I'm heartened nobody pointed out my doing something very wrong with the Rega, my system, my observations or my excessive wordiness. Though I spent far less time summarizing all this here than the listening that led up to this!
> So my bottom-line is now clear. Sell the entire P25/GradoReference/mats/counterweights back through audiogon as a ready-to-play turnkey record player, hopefully to someone who doesn't peruse these forums:-) Sorry Elizabeth, much more than $300. Down the road, see what I have to spend to get the vinyl upgrade I expected, though my stated system goals did not include chasing the ultimate reproduction, just balanced agreeable musicality, and it appears I had that all along! Plus I get to keep semi-auto operation and all the conveniences I was beginning to miss with the Rega...
> Again, thanks to all who posted, I'll be filing a hardcopy of this thread next to the Thorens for all those who ask why I have such an old POS TT in an otherwise modern highish-end system!
