2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
128x128sdecker
goyescas's avatar
Ag insider logo xs@2x
goyescas
31 posts
 
The simple answer, I think, lies in the manner in which either package, as a whole, is able to assist in the control of unwanted vibrations and resonances.

Beyond the package itself (Thorens/Ortofon v Rega/Grado), one must take into account the actual environment in which the package is deployed. Acoustical/airborn/structural vibrations can wreak havoc on even the most expensive analog front-ends. Some effect the suspension, others the cartridge and arm interface, and so on.

Whether a function of the "package" - in this case the T/O or R/G - or the environment, vibrations and resonances all add or subtract colorations. Hell, you probably already know all this, but for the sake of anybody fairly new to all this, well I thought it was worth pointing out.

BTW, when I first read your initial post, I was surprised the Thorens did not sound BETTER than the Rega, which inherently requires a great deal better form of isolation than your Thorens does.

Your particular Thorens benefits from design features that appear in the top of the line tables from Thorens (an isloated suspension, for one), while the Rega...well, it's just a Rega, the alternative table from the 1980's for those who did not want to fuss around with suspensions like those found on most Thorens or any of the AR's, including the (1984) $300 AR Turntable which, once set up and in the right environment, really does outclass the Rega in measured performance. Too bad the motor and bearing on the AR tables were not of a better class (thankfully Merril et al came to the rescue with aftermarket mods that both made perfect sense and worked!).

Removing the fairly decent arm from the Rega, be it the RB250/300/600 or 900, and mounting it on the Stock AR ES-1 or EB-101 proved this point. The infantile but nevertheless shocking dealer demo in those days consisted of taking a very heavy rubber mallet to the base of the AR as it played...a clear method if there ever was one of showing how well the platter and arm were isolated from the base!

Good Vibrations All Around,

-Kurt

dannylw's avatar
dannylw
172 posts
 
Well folks, I am in the same boat. I have a Linn LP12 and and vintage Teac tn400. The Linn has an Ittok arm with a Sumiko Blue point special and the Teac has a Stax with a Supex 900. They sound different but they don't sound twenty years worth of different. In fact they sound surprisingly similiar with the warmth going to the Supex and the air going to the Blue Point.

I also use to own said same Ortofon and I made a lot of recordings wih it on my Teac half track. The phonos sound better than the halftrack copies but of course they are not only generation down in the recording chain but they were also made on very differnt electronics.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
I use an old and "rejected by audiophiles" Sony PS X800 direct drive linear biotracing turntable/arm. I find it to be flawless. The Shure V15MR pickup (also a vintage design)is not quite as nice as the Ortofon MC that I once had, but the replaceable stylus is a big convenience.

The following are the problems that I encounter with LP's, in order of importance.
1. Halfway through the LP the sound often deteriorates, and I must get up and clean fuzz off the stylus. (The integral brush of the Shure V15 pickup helps, but isn't perfect).
2. Low frequency rumble that is in the record groove, not added by my turntable. This I know because a few LPs are OK. (I have an elaborate subwoofer system, really measurably flat to 20 Hz).
3. Surface noise. Cleaning helps, but if you think it completely solves the problem you are kidding yourself.

None of these problems are the fault of my record player, and could not be corrected by newer and more expensive equipment.

DBX-processed LPs, which enjoyed a brief existence just before CDs arrived on the scene, completely solved #2 and #3, and also enhanced pickup performance by limiting the dynamic range of groove modulation. You vinyl enthusiasts really missed the boat when you let that technology die.
lugnut
1,190 posts
 
Eldartford,

If you need to pause and clean your stylus half way through a record then you need to alter your vinyl hygene habits. Also, even without a subwoofer the rumble you refer to would be visible as any speaker/amplifier would attempt to recreate it unless there is a rumble filter. That's not my experience, ever. Surface noise is real but enhanced by many cartridges. I bailed from the Shure V15 in the 70's because of this very issue. After auditioning several MC cartrdiges I found surface noise on generic recordings to nearly disappear. With the best audiophile pressings the noise was, in practical terms, non-existant.

I will never insult anyone's equipment. We've got what we've got and all that really counts is the enjoyment of music. I do take issue with your statement though that "none of these problems are the fault of my record player, and could not be corrected by newer and more expensive equipment". There are vintage turntables that dealt with these and other issues long ago. One of the vintage tables, and the one I have owned since the 70's, is the Linn LP12 and is still sold to this day.

I need to avoid the accusation that I'm just some type of analog camando living to insult digital playback. Such is not the case. When CD's came out in the early 80's the sound was so terrible a side by side comparison was not even needed. What was emphasized by the sales people was the black background and the "forever" lie. Also, buyers were led to believe that the medium was immune to scratches. I bought my first CDP in 1994 when I felt it was listenable and also so that my wife could use the system without fear. I upgraded in 2002 and was very happy with my personal CD playback but realized I rarely used the thing. I no longer have a CDP and it's not because I don't think they are good. Having listened to arguably the best digital playback avialable (Capitole, Merlins, Berning) I still believe my LP12 inserted in this system (we did it) destroyed the digital playback. And, for what it's worth, the Capitole is history and a new 300 series Teres is in its place. This isn't my system either but one of an acquaintence that had no way of auditioning any real turntables in this audio wasteland of Idaho.

It's doubtful I would embrace vinyl if I were a budding audiophile right now. Acquiring my vinyl library took me a lifetime living through every release. That task would be overwhelming now.

I hope you don't take offense with my positions. I didn't mean it in any way other than an accurate historical account of my life in this hobby. I remain open minded and hopeful about a new type of software that will make these discussions irrelevant.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Lugnut....no offense taken.

I clean records from time to time, and use the brush before each play, but I can't see going to extremes. I live in the real world where there is dust in the air, and it gets attracted to vinyl. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to the degradation that even a tiny ball of fuzz can cause, and perhaps I am too quick to look for fuzz when there might be some other problem (like a well worn LP).

As you say, surface noise may vary with different pickups. Apart from the higher tracking force of MC which probably helps with debris in the groove, frequency response must be a factor. A peak in the surface noise range would accentuate it, while a dip would surpress it. The Shure V15 measures flat by all accounts.

Perhaps I am lucky, but I have never had a CD that developed a play problem because of scratches. Some CD players are more tolerant than others. (I have gotten new discs that had defects, sometimes invisible, that aborted playback).

The low frequency rumble that I mention exists on most records, and can be seen as cone motion even if you can't hear it. For some records it pretty much goes away between cuts, suggesting that it is in the recorded groove. One known source (well below 20 HZ) is air conditioning in the recording studio, but that leaves open the question of why it doesn't show up just as much on CD's. Perhaps digital recordings effectively remove anything below 20 HZ, although they certainly do remain flat to 20 HZ.
More to discover