SACD vs ANALOG

914nut--your post raised many interesting points, some of which I'll try to address. Your short question was if we're talking about the same deficiencies of CDs. My experience, having listened to SACDs for the past four months, is that SACD offers the following principal improvements over what I consider deficiencies in CDs:

1. Strings and high frequency instruments and ambience are much smoother and more natural. CD sound in this area has always been hashy, rough and harmonically thin to me; while perhaps there is more energy apparent on CD, it has been rough and artificial. Best example I can give is to listen to the 3rd movement of the Delos recording of the Mahler 2nd, both CD and SACD layers; the difference in the strings at the start of the movement is obvious and much better on the SACD layer.

2. On SACD, piano is much richer harmonically. If you compare a good piano recording on SACD (try Periah's Goldberg Variations on Sony) to a normal CD (save perhaps for the VAI reissues or good analog transfers) the CD will sound thin and brittle in comparison.

3. Dynamics--SACD makes CD sound compressed dynamically.

4. Openness--it's tough to describe, but there is an ease and openness to SACD which rivals good analog. CD sounds to me like it's in a box, albeit, on good CD recordings, a very large box perhaps. SACD removes that box.

I'm not sure if these are the problems you have with CD. While I too have not been that impressed with the Telarc Brahms German Requiem disc, feeling it sounds "muddy" or congested, part of that stems from a 200 voice chorus, Brahms' rich scoring and the hall, as well as perhaps Telarc's early bass-heavy tonal balance. I don't know if that's your overriding "noise". Have you tried the recent Reference Recordings discs with the Minnesota Orchestra (Mephisto & Co., Bernstein, Copland, or Bolero)? I hear very little of what bothers me on the Telarc disc on these recordings. Your "twinkle" with violins might sound better as noted in point 1 above, although part of the problem may lie with close miking of the instruments, at least with solo instruments.

Your point on remastered LPs being disappointing, however, makes me wonder if you'll ultimately like SACD. I've found the Classic, Testament and Speakers Corner reissues, on the whole, to be excellent, but clearly different from the originals in that they are closer to the master tape and have less of the warmth (and lack of focus) of the originals. I was stunned at how close the SACD and Classic Records reissue of the Bruno Walter Brahms Fourth sounded to each other. You will NOT get the warmth of vinyl on SACD. You WILL get closer to the sound of the master tape, but with older or poorly made recordings this may turn into a mixed blessing and you may not like it.

I'd suggest a couple of SACDs--the Vanguard you mentioned (the problem with Vanguard's vinyl stemmed in part from their pressings), the Hyperion SACD of the Floristan Trio playing Faure and Debussy, and the Delos Mahler 2 referred to earlier, all hybrid discs. I have found all three to be excellent recordings, and good illustrations of the differences in the formats. If you live in the NYC tri-state area, I invite you to hear them at my home if you'd like (not everyone demos with these recordings). If you continue to be bothered by them, unless your system is a partial culprit (the Wadia sure isn't, it's a fine player) I'm not sure that SACD or 24/96 digital will be the answer to your prayers. Sorry for the length of this post (and I hope the spacing works like I typed it, or it may look funny), but you asked some interesting questions that got me to thinking. Hope this helps in some way.

Rcprince----points well taken, and I thank you for your response. As for the matter of equipment, my complaints would be the same if I were listening on a Bose Wave Radio:
Some CDs sound great, while others are trash----and some of the "trash" is praised to the Heavens in the audio rags. My system, BTW, while modest, is a bit above the aforementioned Bose, consisting of the Wadia, ARC LS2 preamp, Bryston 4B-ST pwr amp, Sound Lab A-3s. Analog is Rega Planar 3, Sumiko BPS, Camelot Lancelot phono amp. So I don't feel what I'm hearing is equipment-related, since some sources please while others irritate.

I have the Florestan Trio disc, and it's great, but most ordinary CDs of small chamber groups present no problem to my ears.(The Eroica Trio discs are superb, in my estimation. With mastering by Nickrenz/Aubort, I'd be truly astounded if they were anything less! I value their LPs on Nonesuch/Turnabout above most in my collection.) It's the big symphonic/choral works that really get to me----massed violins, trumpets, male voices, etc., sound as if someone is accompanying them with a coffee can full of gravel. As I said before, once heard it's impossible to ignore.

I've found most---but not all---Delos/Eargle efforts to be quite listenable. Tremendous selection also.

You mentioned Reference Recordings, and I find most of them very enjoyable ---almost entirely devoid of the anomalies I'm hearing on other CDs.

That one Telarc of the Brahms Requiem has me baffled, however, to the extent that I wonder seriously if my ears are the only two that have this severe a problem. (I suffer from tinnitus---severe at times, hardly noticeable at others--- and I've wondered if perhaps there is a reverse synergy as a result of induced distortion (intermodulation?)in my auditory system. As I said before, that disc has been held up by several reviewers as a good reference for use in evaluating equipment. A friend suggested that perhaps I simply got a bad disc, which I find hard to believe. I've been under the (false?) impression that a CD either plays, or it doesn't. (It's either "perfect forever" or it's mute, heh,heh.)

Your comment regarding the "box" sound reminded me of my first impression of the WLA "Nature's Realm" hybrid SACD. Admittedly, I've only listened to the ordinary CD layer so far, but within the first minute, it sounded as if my glorious transparent, open-as-all-outdoors Sound Labs had themselves been packed into boxes! The SACD layer has its work cut out if it is to correct that.

It's obvious to me that the only thing I can do for now is to make a trip to the nearest Sony dealer (in Nashville), armed with my three hybrid SACDs, and decide "yes! 8^)" or "no. 8>(". If "no", I'll simply forget about the 9000ES; if "yes!", I may buy that macchina diabolo, (and then wonder what I'm gonna listen to, however!). I've been into audio, admittedly sporadically, for some fifty years, and I cannot recall having to make some of the decisions with which I'm presently confronted. I'm obviously not a cheapskate when it comes to equipment purchases, but I hate to throw good money after bad. I never thought I'd see the day when equipment, in particular speakers, outstrips the available "software"! Maybe the problem is that some present-day equipment is too revealing of the software's faults.

I appreciate your response, and thank you for the invitation to audition discs in your home. Since I live in the middle of TN, that would be a bit inconvenient for me! I am grateful for the invitation, nevertheless.
Best-
Jim

Jim: Well, it sure isn't your system, unless it's too revealing! I must admit having similar feelings about both the Brahms and parts of the Nature's Realm discs as you, although my characterization of them, as I mentioned before, is congested. Sometimes when the tonal balance of a disc is tilted towards the bass as it is at times in those recordings I feel, when the whole orchestra is playing at a loud level, as if everything is congealing and becoming more opaque. However, I can also get that experience with analog as well, though perhaps not to the same extent. Maybe both of us are showing our age? I do suggest you bring that Florestan Trio disc with you if you trek to Nashville, it is a treat on SACD in the smoothness of the strings and the richness of the piano; I'm not sure SACD will help that much on the WLA, though, as it is such a dry recording venue you may be disappointed. See if they have the Delos, it's a showpiece sonically and very natural sounding, particularly in its ambience retrieval. And thanks for the Eroica Trio reference, I don't have enough of them and am going to have to get some of their records. Good luck!

Rcprince--- I guess "congested" (constipated? heh,heh) is a good characterization regarding the WLA disc. I have no sense of air or imaging with the disc---almost as if I had a single Patrician, or Voice of the Theatre, sitting in front of me (Those go back a few years, eh?).

My other hybrid SACD is the Vanguard Stokowski/Virgil Thompson, and I really enjoy it. It's amazing for a 40 year
old recording to have the soundstage/imaging it has. It does sound a bit artificial in places,however, at least on my rig, what with some percussion and banjo sounding as if they were spotlighted at the front of the stage. Of course, with Leopold's reputation for the spectacular, he may well have placed them there. I never would have thought He would have allowed anyone to upstage Him, however! 8^)
Jim

I now have three of the four, I think, Eroica's. I've got several analog and digital recordings of the same pieces they've done, including four versions of the Shostakovick Piano Trio #2, but when I see those lovely gals on the jewel case, I can't resist buying (what a sexist thing to say!). As far as I'm concerned, they are top-notch musicians, regardless of the bad press they received in one of the audio rags recently---the guy must be the prototype
male chauvinist pig!. I think it proves the paraphrase: those who can play, play/those who can't play, criticize those who can!

914nut--You're showing your age with those old speakers! With respect to the Thompson, Analogue Productions has re-released it on vinyl, tube remastering so it sounds quite nice. Definitely spotlighted some of the instruments, that's clear, and I don't doubt the esteemed conductor had something to do with that. The other Vanguard SACDs sound quite good too; while SACD sounds its best for demonstrations with DSD masters, good analog recordings (and not all of the old Columbias that have been released fall into that category) can also sound excellent. I would say that I could live happily with either the vinyl or SACD versions I've got of the Vanguards, which says a lot for the SACDs. As far as the WLA disc goes, it does have quite good string sound, and I'm willing to take their word for it that the hall sounds like that, and I do like the Dvorak performances (I prefer Kertesz on Decca, though), but I just don't enjoy listening to it that much. Much too dry an acoustic. I don't need overly reverberant recordings either, but I would like a little more than what's on that disc.