Cable vs. Electronics: biggest bang for the buck

Bwhite wrote:
"But.. what about the other modules?"

Let me give some examples, since I have some technical knowledge in this area:

1) Film resistors - these are lower inductance and lower noise. They reduce the thermal noise that causes the hiss at low levels that you hear. Does not affect tone.

2) Poly caps (polypropylene, polystyrene) in the signal path - these reduce dielectric absorption. DA causes time smearing of the signal. also does not affect tone. This is a dynamic effect.

3) Power supply cap increase - this provides more capacity to respond to high-power events, so dynamics can be improved. prevents voltage sags when high-power events occur. does not affect tone. This is a dynamic effect.

4) high-frequency, low internal resistance caps in the power supply (decoupling caps) - Improves response to high-frequency transients. Prevents truncation of transients because the power system can react faster. This is a dynamic effect.

Changes in tone are changes in amplitude as a function of frequency. It is a steady-state effect.

As for my system, I have 3, so I will describe my reference:

Source: Sony DVP-S7700 transport
Pre: Proceed AVP
Amp: Coda 10.5
Spkrs: KEF reference 104/2
Cables: Empirical Audio

This shows that old components, particularly speakers can still be reference quality. Also, you can get 95% of the performance of the most expensive reference components at a fraction of the price.

Audioengr is there a difference in sound between Auricaps and Black Gate?

Do not know. Probably dependent on the application. If there is, it is a difference in internal resistance or dielectric absorption. Neither affects "tone".

Do Caddocks sound the same as Vishays?

Do not know. Probably dependent on the application. If they do not, it is because they differ in thermal noise or inductance.

Bwhite - I agree with some of your points. However, I take issue with a few of your observations.

Bwhite wrote:
"I used a $300 cable vs. a $300 component as a comparison and it seems you agree that a $300 component wouldn't revolutionize a system like a cable might. How about a $1500 cable vs. a $1500 component?"

Not to split hairs, but just because a $300 component would be incapable of "revolutionizing" a system does not imply that a $300 cable might do so. My point is that no matter how good the cable, they will only be as good as the weakest link in the rest of your system. The goal of good cables should be that they impart nothing but the signal fed them. Having said that, I agree that a $300 cable inserted into an already excellent system would probably yield much better results than a $300 component added to that system. Whether spending $1500 on a cable vs. $1500 on an electronic component would yield better results would depend on the quality of the rest of the system. However, I wouldn't spend more than 20%-25% of the cost of my entire system on cables.

You quoted me out of context when you said that I said, if a cable is good, it reveals problems. Your conclusion that I meant that "problems" is the definition of a good cable is illogical. My statement followed the sentence; "If, for instance, your electronic components which cost ten times that of your cables are flawed in some obvious way, no $300 cable will come to their rescue." Taken in context, and not as a non sequitor, you should be able to see that your interpretation of my statement was wrong. The meaning is that, given that someone has a flawed system, a good cable will reveal these flaws. You stated that, "Good cables tend to be good no matter where they are." I'm left to assume that you mean a good cable can make a bad system sound good. On this point I disagree. Given that you have a good cable, it's not that the cable becomes bad in a bad system; it's just that the good cable reveals the system's flaws, which can make entire system sound worse than with a less revealing cable. The same thing occurs when a better CD player with higher resolution makes a poorly recorded CD sound worse than it did with an ordinary CD player. I don't subscribe to the practice of choosing a cable as a "tone control" to ameliorate my system's shortcomings. If anything, I would like to know what the rest of my system really sounds like in order to improve it. This doesn't imply that I change my electronic components to suit my cables. I use a good cable as a clear window to view the reproduction of a musical performance by the rest of my system. Considering the complexity of the electronics in front of a cable and the number of ways that it can contribute to distorting a musical signal before it enters a cable, you can hardly blame a good cable, which has to do only one thing well; pass the signal, intact. That being said, I do believe that choosing the right cable for a good system is important.

Bwhite said:

"Everything you experienced in the changes to the Adcom can be associated with tone and are perceived because of the change in tone or accentuation of various frequencies which were otherwise subdued. Greater Extension, Dynamics, weight, clarity, speed, decrease in noise, etc. This is tone at work."

It seems that you believe you can reduce the many attributes of sound to a common denominator called tone. I don't agree with your assessment. Granted, quite a few of the attributes I used in my example are related to tone. However, the speed of a signal, a reduction of distortion components, and dynamics are not simply "tone at work!" An increase in the level of a sound is not a change in tone, but a change in amplitude. Tonal change is a change in the pitch and timbre of audible frequencies. You can't describe all the sounds you hear as tone any more than you can describe all the things you see as tonal colors. It's not that simple.

Bwhite said:

"Weight: The feeling of solidity and foundation contributed to music by extended, natural bass reproduction.

Clarity? How about Transparency?

Transparency: A quality of sound reproduction that gives the impression of listening through the system to the original sounds, rather than to a pair of loudspeakers. 2) Freedom from veiling, texturing, or any other quality which tends to obscure the signal. A quality of crystalline clarity.

Highs.... Open up the sound create that illusion of clarity."

Since you have quoted or created definitions of some of the attributes of sound, you should know that the words transparency and clarity are synonymous.

I use Virtual Dynamics Nite and Audition cables exclusively, and they are the best cables to have ever graced my system. I have never heard a more convincing illusion of the musical performance from my system since using these cables.

Hshapiro wrote: My point is that no matter how good the cable, they will only be as good as the weakest link in the rest of your system.

And he continued: "You quoted me out of context when you said that I said, if a cable is good, it reveals problems. Your conclusion that I meant that "problems" is the definition of a good cable is illogical."

I guess my point was that if a "good" cable reveals flaws in your system, how do you really know it is a good cable? What if it doesn't reveal flaws? Does that mean its bad? It seems MORE logical to rely on how the cable makes your system sound vs. some perceived notion that the cable is "good" based on measurements or price or if it reveals problems. Like I said, its about system synergy. Certain cables - yes, even $300 ones can make an ordinary system sound great and can in some cases benefit a much higher valued system as well. The results all depend upon the sonics of the components being used as well as the room in which the system resides.

Hshapiro wrote: You stated that, "Good cables tend to be good no matter where they are." I'm left to assume that you mean a good cable can make a bad system sound good. On this point I disagree.

Yes they can. My definition of "good" as it pertains to cables is simply what sounds best in any given system. What is your definition of good? How do you know your Virtual Dynamics Nite and Audition cables are good? Do you measure them? Do they show weaknesses in the rest of your system or do they just sound good?

Come on man, tell me... how do you define a good cable? And.. how do you know its good? Will that good cable sound good in everyone elses system?

** Something to think about - Virtual Dynamics cables made my system sound lousy, so they must be good... right?

Hshapiro wrote: The same thing occurs when a better CD player with higher resolution makes a poorly recorded CD sound worse than it did with an ordinary CD player.

I have NEVER heard a good CD player (and I've owned several very good CD players) which made a bad recording sound worse than when played on bad CD player.

Hshapiro wrote: You can't describe all the sounds you hear as tone any more than you can describe all the things you see as tonal colors. It's not that simple.

You are right, its not that simple. Sound itself is simply a set of vibrations containing frequency. And tone is how we perceive the frequencies. Take an old receiver and crank up the bass knob. We perceive greater dynamics - amplitude - weight... turn up the treble and wow, everything is more open, detailed. How exciting! In order to add more detail to music it takes a change of pitch, timbre, yes... tone. How else do you think the vibrations of sound can be mutated or etched to create sound we perceive as more detailed?

Hshapiro wrote: Since you have quoted or created definitions of some of the attributes of sound, you should know that the words transparency and clarity are synonymous.

Do you honestly assume that I didn't know the meaning of clarity is virtually the same as transparency? Duh! Come on man! Get off your high horse and try to figure out why I chose to quote the definition of transparency vs. clarity.