"Trickle up" theory

"Why do you think it is that you have that experience at Jeff's? And do you ever have it at your place?"

Great follow-up questions.

1) Part of the reason I enjoy an environment like that is because of the company I keep while listening to music in that environment. I like listening to music with someone who is passionate about music. I like to be given a tour of their music collection - allowing them to share music that they are passionate about, and pointing out what makes them passionate about that particular music. Some of my favorite LPs were introduced to me this way.

Also, I have no obligations while listening to other's systems except be a polite and thankful guest (sometimes I'll bring something interesting musically to share, but most of the time I allow the host to DJ). The child running around isn't mine. The dishwasher isn't mine. That pile of clothes that needs to be put away isn't mine. This allows me to relax and bathe in the music. It's a nice escape.

2) When you host a party, you want everything to be perfect. Perfect food. Perfect drink. Great converation. Interesting guests. Etc. You worry about everyone else having a good time that you yourself do not have a good time. I think this may occur when listening to my system with others.

Also, sometimes when listening to my system, I tend to be overanalytical and overcritical of the system and production ofthe music, and not pay as much attention to the music itself. This is a bad habit that I picked up in college while working as a recording engineer. I focused on the mix and not the music (which is very unfortunate because I recorded some great performances from wonderful performers).

Now, would I trade my system for Jeff's? No way in hell. But my point is that the problem lies with me and not my system. Gimme another Bud...that'll fix it all.

The only time stuff "trickles up" is when something sucks.

Let's KICK that anthill! Psychicanimal, where are you? Whoooo-eeee!

Now I am throwing out an idea to which I hoped for constructive brainstorming. Nrenter discussed the topic seriously, accepting it as an issue worth thinking about, that he had in fact noticed. What I'm talking about is real, not cooked up simply to upset people. Was he correct in his assessment? It boiled down to the social environment. But what if the explanation is simpler: what if his friend's system simply is better at timing, end of story? What if it is not his engineering training which makes his home system ocasionally less musically involving (being again a case of subjective/social environment in Nrenter's eyes), but that his system emphasizes the information at the expense of the musical message (please don't take offense, Nrenter, just possibilities)? Hasn't anyone ever tweaked their favourite piece only to reach a point where suddenly it seems to have lost the magic which prompted us to tweak, while giving us all that extra detail? I know it's happened to me. Many people have noticed as well that music is simply more fun in the car: no friends, no beer here! Whatever the explanation, Nrenter recognized the phenomenon I'm talking about. Drubin highlighted the existence of a writer and a magazine which were in fact devoted to the subject I'm talking about: a magazine which blamed "bad" equipment for the problem. What if it's not bad equipment but, say, synergy problems? If it's simply an issue of capacitance, for instance, wouldn't it be good to know this: that improper design with respect to capacitance is the culprit in systems which time badly? This is what I mean when I say that high-end manufacturers (not all, as I clearly wrote , but some) could learn from listening to lower-end equipment.

Across the pond an entire country/audio community (the British) have been saying since I got into the game in the early '80s that large power supplies damage the timing, or Prat. Now simpy dubbing it "Prat" simply makes the idea "cute" and makes it easy for us to dismiss it as unimportant - this is a form of rhetoric designed to steer us away from this aspect, not focus out attention on it. But I believe, Art Dudley believes, all those Naim and Exposure followers believe, Linnies, horn-speaker fans, to name but a few, that timing is the supreme issue. Anyone who plays an instrument knows that this is the supreme issue, apart from the notes themselves. Perhaps the British were right. Why is it that low-powered tube amps are now sweeping the country? I know that a friend of mine recently tried one of these, and the timing in his expensive sytem leaped forward, and now we sit with bated breath in awe before the musical performances in his basement. His system is high-end, extremely detailed, dynamic and so forth, but the magic is back. This shows that high-end systems can have the magic, but the fact is many simply fail, as his did before the low-powered amp, while we listened for details, playing the same old audiophile records again and again.

Right now audio magazines are always going on about information retrieval of some sort. The more information an item extracts, the better it is (with of course some exceptions). And of course this is related to money. Frankly this approach bores me: there is no genius in building larger and larger power supplies, in building heavier and heavier speaker cabinets, and in charging more and more money to do this. Will a thousand-pound record-player necessarily sound better than a 20 pound record-player, and is this an interesting or ingenious solution? Not at a $20,000 premium. To provide an example of an alternative: the Well Tempered 'table is ingenious, and William Firebaugh deserves all the recognition he gets. Of course if you keep throwing money at a problem - keep thickening the baffle, build exotic cabinets and so on - the information retrieval will improve, but this is an engineering approach to a musical problem. It doesn't work, the problem is not that simple. Thus we are trained to think in this way. But if all audio magazines only considered timing issues, (relegating information - small details - to the background Prat currently occupies) I submit we would now all be aiming for timing in our equipment. As Nrenter suggested, it's in our heads. Since we don't place Prat at the fore-front, we don't think about it, and since we don't think about it, we don't understand why our expensive equipment isn't enthralling (impressive maybe, but not enthralling), and we fiddle endlessly with cabling and so on instead of being entranced as we had had hoped when we spent the money. I know my system is a success when a non-audiophile asks me to play more music. And I know others of you think the same way, though you're keeping silent. I think it's time we think about it. It's been said often enough that the high-end needs an overhaul, that it's on its last legs, ect. Is it too much to ask that there's a good chance that the next multi-grand item I buy is enthralling? Of course our experience and wisdom comes into it, but there is tremendous peer pressure (audio magazines, price, etc.) to go against our instincts and buy that "ultimate" piece. I'm not against the high-end, I'm against unimaginative approaches, and high-end items which are a fraud. Remember, this is a discussion forum. Plato's works were the result of such forums, science advanced because of such discussions (Galileo corresponded with various other famed astronomers to advance science). While we are not all Socrateses (!) or Platos or Galileos, maybe someone reading this forum is, and he designs audio equipment. Any other Nrenters out there want to make a go?

If I listen to a state of the art system and my toe doesn't start tapping and my knee beebopping, I know something is wrong. This was a common occurance in years past at high end showrooms. Today, I experience this less and less. Of course, it is about PRAT or whatever you want to call it.

When I must put on my critical listening ears for setting up a new piece or for evaluation sessions I'm not enjoying myself. I find concentrating too much on all the details takes me away from the music. Sometimes though, I find I can't concentrate on the details and get swept away with the music. That's when the magic is happening. It happens more frequently these day than in days past. So, I'm both agreeing and disagreeing with you. I believe that the potential to put together a SOTA system that retains the basic attributes you alude to is higher today than at any time before.

This thread hasn't gotten into the good and the bad of the high end component world. I'll offer some recommendations for gear that is world class and keeps the soul of the music intact. I don't know for sure but I think these pieces could be inserted in nearly any system and retain these characteristics. They are: Berning amps, Supratek preamps and Ridge Street cabling.

I'd like to thank Vetterone for introducing me to these lines. The Supratek is simply to die for. Biggest bang for the buck piece I've listened to in over 35 years in this hobby.