A difficult LP reproduction question


I have a nice high end system and wish to add a second turntable (for fun!). The choices are likely Thorens TD124MK ll or Lenco L75. Both these are old technology and will spin 78 RPM and use idler drive.

Desire is to experiment with moving magnet cartridge, inexpensive phono stages and 78 RPM records to name but a few.

Here are but a few of the economy priced phono stages that I've been researching for the past three weeks. (Hope that explains my lack of posting lately).

Seduction
http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm

EAR 834P Deluxe
http://www.ear-usa.com/earproducts.htm

Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE
http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ALEHBCPLUS

Antique Soundlab Mini
http://www.divertech.com/aslminiphono.htm

Musical Fidelity X-LPSv3
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/xponframeset.html

NAD PP2
http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/pp2_closerlook.htm

Any Audiogon member that have direct experience with any combination of these, I would appreciate your comments.
128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xalbertporter
Eldartford. I don't need anything nor would I ask it of you. Just responding to your negative post.

As for idler wheel turntables, some make very nice music indeed. They are also among the very few tables ever built that can accomplish the (true) speed variations necessary for all 78 RPM pressings.

78 RPM records vary from mid 60 RPM to nearly 88 RPM. Traditional turntables are unable to play these back properly as they are locked at around 78 RPM (plus or minus 3 percent). Aside from that distinct advantage, I would also acquire a player that revisits my youth without much investment.

As for newer technology, the outlets your testing are not to my liking. I tested half a dozen on my system and made a decision based on quality of sound. The ones your testing did not make the cut, but I have stayed out of that discussion as it was your test and your results.

There are many opinions as to what sounds good and what does not. No doubt a great deal of this may be attributed to personal taste and (much) more than people would think, the equipment and the room.

The fact that your results do not match mine means just that. You are correct in your assessment with your equipment and in your environment. My equipment is very different, my room is totally different and my results are absolutely different.

I treasure any product that makes music "right," For me that means tubes and analog. I intensely dislike your digital amps yet agree with your assessment of Dynaco. So in spite of our differences, we can find some things to agree on.

As for turntables, it is damn hard to find a really great piece of reliable gear for $35.00 to $100.00. My goal is not to replace my state of the art Walker or my Io phono, but to see if some fun exists in revisiting the old Thorens and Lencos. Possibly even finding an original Jerry Lee Lewis or other rock and roll great on 78 and see how it sounds.

Along the way in this journey should I put something together that makes my son happy and that he can pack off to school, then mission accomplished two fold.

As for wall outlets, it's no secret that I have my own. They have sold here at Audiogon for a good while and I have only positive responses from buyers.

Considering a high quality Hubbell costs about $25.00 with tax, my $36.00 asking price is very fair. If the cryo treatment only improves one's system a tiny bit, it's $10.00 well spent. Many at this site have spent 200 times that amount on a single power cord.

I look for ways to add joy to my listening experience. An opportunity to improve my system in ways that puts me closer to the music. I have isolation devices in my system that cost $13.00 and in my opinion are the best available.

In other words, I consider equipment options at every price level, regardless if new or old technology. Price is important but only if it balances against how the music is delivered.
The Grado family of cartridge builders have been around for 50 years..I think John Grado took over from Joe who was in the first group to be inducted into the Audio Hall of Fame. Anyway the family has been around and doing cartridges since the earth cooled.In their combined library of experience they would give you the most profound advice..Tom
Albertporter...I guess I didn't grasp that your objective is to find a turntable with wow and flutter, rumble, and speed variation, to augment the 78 rpm surface noise, and recapture that nostalgic sound of your youth! In that context an idler wheel table fits the bill perfectly.

Records were made at various speeds, but those which are not 78rpm aren't properly called "78s". The 78rpm standard was established to end the speed inconsistencies, just as the RIAA equalization standard was established to end the need for multiple equalization curves in preamps. The speed range that you cite agrees with what I remember, and does exceed the range of adjustment for most turntables that provide for speed adjustment. Can you explain why an idler wheel drive permits more adjustment than some other form of drive? Or is it just that when turntables were made with a wide range of speed adjustment, idler wheel drive was the only show in town.
I can help you there, Eldartford. The Lenco can play over a wide variety of speeds because the spindle against which the idler wheel turns is gradually machined from "fat" to "skinny", the idler wheel itself is carried on a sliding support to transport the wheel to any point along the spindle in infinitely variable increments, much like analogue itself versus the chopped-up digital version of music. Quite ingenious, and the reason why the Lencos are the darlings of the 78 crowd.

As to wow, flutter, rumble and speed variations, these are problems which affect belt drives as well, which is why these figures are given out even today. As well, belt-drive motors (cogging 150-300 rpm motors) often exhibit problems, as they are not nearly as well-built as the smoothly-spinning cogless, 4-pole, 1800-rpm idler-wheel motors of yore; belts are rubber bands which constantly react to "stylus drag" every time the needle hits heavily modulated passages (which is why so many belt-drives - even high-end ones - lose it when things get complicated)...all problems which do not affect properly set up idler-wheel drives. Probably why Sugano used a Garrard 301 in designing his Koetsu cartridges. Here I will quote from a very knowledgeable and logical man of open and working mind, Rudolf A. Bruil: "In order to achieve a perfect and steady turning of the record an EMT, a Thorens TD124 and a Garrard 301 and 401 (and also the early Goldring/Lenco) each have a heavy platter, a strong motor and an idler wheel which make the platter turn in a steady fashion, without a trace of slowing down when loud and complex passages suddenly occur. The isolation of the motor should be maximal. The rubber of the idler wheel should be durable and should not transmit motor vibrations to the platter at the same time. The circumference of the idler wheel needs to be impeccable. If this is not the case then rumble, wow and flutter will be the result...In the nineteen seventies several firms started using a heavy platter (6 to 20 kg) with the bulk of its mass concentrated on the periphery in order to achieve extraordinary values for wow, flutter and speed accuracy. If the shaft (spindle) and the bearing are engeneered from the best materials and to close tolerances, the playback of an Lp can give stunning results if arm and cartridge are also of high quality." Lencos with the rubber-covered aluminum idler wheels never have flat spots or other irregularities, the motors and platters are hand-balanced in labs, the platter has much o fits mass concentrated on the periphery, the motors themselves have their own three-point true spring suspension, and the main bearings are excellent. It's all in the execution.

Here is a quote from one of the few comparisons ever made between a modern high-end 'table, a Michell Gyrodec, and a rebuilt idler-wheel drive, the Garrard 401, in Hi Fi World: "I also strongly suspect, after listening to the very clean transient starts and stops supported by this turntable, that its high torque drive system suffers less from dynamic slowing than belt drives. That's why it not only sounds dynamic, but has a very good sense of pace and rhythmic control. The rumble demon has been banished completely by Martin Bastin's new bearing and plinth. Previously it measured around -25dB at 25Hz, relative to the DIN rumble test tone. Now, the spectrum analyser shows 25Hz level measures -60dB, looking like ordinary disc surface noise rather than a discrete rumble component. The smoothness of the rumble spectrum indicates there is no rumble as such."

So, if by recapturing the sound of our youth you mean music played with the proper authority and spot-on timing, which is absolutely crucial to proper reproduction of music and hence musical thrills, then yes, I agree with you entirely.
Johnnantais...Thanks for the good writeup about idler wheel turntable technology. The ones that I had, including the ubiquitous Garrards, never worked that well, and were easily surpassed by early belt drive tables like the Empire 598 that I used. Perhaps the belt drive is just harder to screw up, and doesn't require the precision engineering and construction needed to make the idler wheel effective.

The speed changes that you cite as a result of groove modulation is something that I have never actually seen (with LPs) using a strobe on either my belt drive or direct drive tables. Probably it happens more with 78s, and perhaps the phono pickup and downforce play a role. I have long used Shure V15 at about 1 gram.