A difficult LP reproduction question

Well I find this discussion of cheap'n fun phono stages fascinating. I wasn't aware of the Rat Shack project, and now I am I think I'll have to give it a go! Thanks Joe and Eldartford! It seems to me that Gram Slee started by making a phono stage for 78s, you should look them up Albert, and see if it is still (or ever was) made. Unfortunately, my books are still all in boxes. I believe it was an early Hi Fi + that did the review of this 78 preamp (if it was a Gram Slee).

On the subject of the Mini Phono, however, I am certain of what's going on, as this is what I use when playing my Lencos. While my regular phono stage is quite good - which despite being a Pioneer Elite preamp from the '80s (avaunt Demon!) is of surprising quality (it surprised me), better than the NYAL I had used until I acquired it in fact (the surprise being I had bought the Pioneer as a stand-in until I could get the NYAL repaired) - it cannot handle the extreme dynamics of my Lencos (this is not hyperbole), so I use it strictly for my belt-drives (it has deeper bass than my Mini Phono): my Maplenoll, Ariston RD11S and Audiomeca, among others. The only cheap phono stage which will accomodate the Lenco's dynamics without distorting is the ASL Mini Phono, because it is tubed. This is a superb unit for the money, and has much fun tweak factor built in (as do all ASL units). It also has tube rolling potential for yet more future fun. I bought a pair of severely measured (specifically for the ASL's electrical characteristics) and matched Philips NOS tubes for mine and it is dead quiet. Not too much gain though, but not a problem, and I have the volume control on my preamp, which can go to 11! Given the Lenco's dynamics, the NAD and Musical Fidelity need not apply. The jump in price from the ASL to the other options is not subtle. And will they match the ASL's glorious tube midrange (truly, this is a giant-killer phono preamp, given matched tubes for quietness, which are absolutely necessary)?

If you decide to go for the Thorens, be aware that this is a "quasi-idler-wheel-drive", and so the dynamics will not match the Lenco's dynamics (the Thorens was found to be less dynamic than the true idler-wheel drive big Garrards in published comparisons), which means that the NAD and MF preamps can again apply, though I don't think they will match the ASL anyway. Being tubed, the ASL also has much more "educational" potential.

While it is true that many idler-wheel drives did have problems with flat spots and rumble, the Lenco is so designed so that flat spots do not develop. The sprung suspension of the motor also does much to eradicate rumble. This, among other things, makes the Lenco an excellent way to delve into the potential glories of idler-wheel drives. Bravo for your experimental and fun spirit Albert!

Albert,
Jean turned me on to the ASL Mini, which he loves, when I purchased an Ariston RD80 from him. While I am just getting back into Vinyl it seems to do a superb job and I found it better than the other compareable pre's in that price range.
Hard to go wrong at that price. You do need to upgrade the tubes to low noise matched sets though which adds a little to the price. The other downside is if you are in an area with a lot of RF it tends to pick that up.
Not sure about the RIAA cures though for 78's.

Eldartford. I don't need anything nor would I ask it of you. Just responding to your negative post.

As for idler wheel turntables, some make very nice music indeed. They are also among the very few tables ever built that can accomplish the (true) speed variations necessary for all 78 RPM pressings.

78 RPM records vary from mid 60 RPM to nearly 88 RPM. Traditional turntables are unable to play these back properly as they are locked at around 78 RPM (plus or minus 3 percent). Aside from that distinct advantage, I would also acquire a player that revisits my youth without much investment.

As for newer technology, the outlets your testing are not to my liking. I tested half a dozen on my system and made a decision based on quality of sound. The ones your testing did not make the cut, but I have stayed out of that discussion as it was your test and your results.

There are many opinions as to what sounds good and what does not. No doubt a great deal of this may be attributed to personal taste and (much) more than people would think, the equipment and the room.

The fact that your results do not match mine means just that. You are correct in your assessment with your equipment and in your environment. My equipment is very different, my room is totally different and my results are absolutely different.

I treasure any product that makes music "right," For me that means tubes and analog. I intensely dislike your digital amps yet agree with your assessment of Dynaco. So in spite of our differences, we can find some things to agree on.

As for turntables, it is damn hard to find a really great piece of reliable gear for $35.00 to $100.00. My goal is not to replace my state of the art Walker or my Io phono, but to see if some fun exists in revisiting the old Thorens and Lencos. Possibly even finding an original Jerry Lee Lewis or other rock and roll great on 78 and see how it sounds.

Along the way in this journey should I put something together that makes my son happy and that he can pack off to school, then mission accomplished two fold.

As for wall outlets, it's no secret that I have my own. They have sold here at Audiogon for a good while and I have only positive responses from buyers.

Considering a high quality Hubbell costs about $25.00 with tax, my $36.00 asking price is very fair. If the cryo treatment only improves one's system a tiny bit, it's $10.00 well spent. Many at this site have spent 200 times that amount on a single power cord.

I look for ways to add joy to my listening experience. An opportunity to improve my system in ways that puts me closer to the music. I have isolation devices in my system that cost $13.00 and in my opinion are the best available.

In other words, I consider equipment options at every price level, regardless if new or old technology. Price is important but only if it balances against how the music is delivered.

The Grado family of cartridge builders have been around for 50 years..I think John Grado took over from Joe who was in the first group to be inducted into the Audio Hall of Fame. Anyway the family has been around and doing cartridges since the earth cooled.In their combined library of experience they would give you the most profound advice..Tom

Albertporter...I guess I didn't grasp that your objective is to find a turntable with wow and flutter, rumble, and speed variation, to augment the 78 rpm surface noise, and recapture that nostalgic sound of your youth! In that context an idler wheel table fits the bill perfectly.

Records were made at various speeds, but those which are not 78rpm aren't properly called "78s". The 78rpm standard was established to end the speed inconsistencies, just as the RIAA equalization standard was established to end the need for multiple equalization curves in preamps. The speed range that you cite agrees with what I remember, and does exceed the range of adjustment for most turntables that provide for speed adjustment. Can you explain why an idler wheel drive permits more adjustment than some other form of drive? Or is it just that when turntables were made with a wide range of speed adjustment, idler wheel drive was the only show in town.