CD v.s LP - When comming from the same MASTER


This has probably been discussed to death but after reading a few posts its a little unclear to me still.

Some artists today are releasing albums on LP format as well as CD format. If a C.D and an LP (LP's made today)came from the same MASTER DIGITAL SOURCE at the same release time. Would the LP format always sound better? or because it came from digital, might as well get the C.D?

Whatcha think
agent193f7c5
I don't quite follow the point about the necessity of summing deep bass to 'fit it on a record'. A full wavelength at 20Hz on a 33 1/3 RPM record traces 10 degrees. Put another way, you can fit 36 wavelengths of a 20Hz signal around a groove. Together with RIAA deemphasis, ~20db at 20Hz, this wouldn't seem to be a problem. What I don't know is what physical groove modulation is needed for a 0db level at 20Hz. Perhaps you're right.

At what frequency do they start summing to mono for LPs?

This of course completely begs the question of the necessity for stereo bass that low, unless of course your listening room is the size of a football stadium.
I think, it can't be answered in general.
The Problem with CD has nothing to do with the digital Master in general, most differences are made through the next processes. High speed burned or low speed burned, with or without reclocked burners and so on. It is more or less endless ( check out all these "remastered" issues, sick ).
Some CD's sound very good, some not and I think, it is the same with Vinyl, which has it's source from a Digital Master. Some CAN sound very good and some don't, depends on the Mastering Lab I guess.
Anyway, here I go for the CD, when I am not sure about the result, then I don't waste time on it.
( You know, I can freeze it, or paint the outer ring with a text marker or I can cut the outside for a better angle or ..... )
Pabelson and others...Summing of the bass (like the drastic RIAA equalization) is a topic that vinyl fans like to ignore. I believe that the reason for suming is to enable non-audiophile phono pickups to stay in the groove. Large vertical groove modulation would raise havoc with VTF, and even cause the stylus to hop out of the groove. I think that the summing is rather gradual in slope, but begins around 200 Hz. Whether this is a problem or not is another thread. Many people sum the bass to a single subwoofer. (Not me).

Horizontal groove modulation is what needs to be limited so as to save space on the vinyl. This is done, first by the RIAA equalization, and secondly by variable groove spacing (according to the momentary LF signal content).
An afterthought...Some of the very first stereo LPs, Audio Fidelity "Dukes of Dixieland" did not sum the bass, at least that I can detect on my system. Some of the very first stereo recordings (Vanguard in particular) also stuck with two microphones, and that also was better than early attempts at multitrack recording. Sometimes progress goes the wrong way.
I agree that there are problems to be overcome with the analog playback system, and also the recording of records.

My take on this is that at least the analog system has the continuous waveforms recorded into it and can attempt to play them back, and the difficulties in this task are largely in the realm of the playback system to extract from the grooves. If the TT/arm/cart are up to it, almost all of the information can be brought into the system, albeit with some distortion caused by the recording process, and some caused by the playback system.

With the digital system, the sampling process is, by definition, not continuous, and as a result only a portion of the actual music is even recorded. So the many of the significant problems with digital actually occur at the master recording stage and the redbook conversion, with certain amounts of the music being left on the floor during the sampling process. Once this occurs the music is limited at that level, and cannot be recovered. So, even a top-quality esoteric digital player that makes a near perfect reproduction of the master is limited in information by the recording itself.

Maybe some feel that the Nyquist theory is valid and this is not an issue. In the gross sense, I think the Nyquist theory is valid. But not in the ultimate sense. There is a point where analog recordings can exceed the informational transfer of digital recordings, provided the analog recording is decent enough to begin with, and the analog playback equipment is decent enough to extract more information from the record than a digital recording can make. It is at this point(and above) where the analog medium begins to show its stuff. This is why people make the move to analog gear. If there was no difference, they wouldn't do it, because digital is clearly more convenient and more accessible in every way.

So, analog with all its warts(and there are many) can still provide a higher degree of music information transfer into the audio system than digital can. At the lower, more mass market levels, this may not be obvious because the analog gear is not precision enough to show the difference. At the higher levels, it is clearly obvious. I recently had a discussion with a person who has a listening buddy who has had some of the finest digital gear in existence, price no object. He currently has the latest Meitner gear, which is really, really good. He also has a very fine turntable(that cost about half what the Meitner digital gear did). The turntable exceeds the Meitner gear, and all of the other digital gear.

This could not be so, if the digital stuff fully captured the recording, and that is why I state that the digital recording processes are the limiting factor. I am fully aware that the digital stuff has a theoretical dynamic range advantage. I am aware that the background noise can be less with digital. I am aware of the "lossless" conversions concept. I know about the Nyquist theory. I know that digital has all kinds of advantages at the consumer end. And I accept all of that. But the bottom line is that it is limited by the very sampling technology that makes digital possible in the first place. It does not record the full waveforms. And when you reach the higher levels of performance, the advantages of analog(in music information transfer) show themselves.

So, what does this have to do with the main topic at hand. Just this: that the limitations of digital are primarily in the recording stage, and the limitations of analog are primarily in the playback stage. To refer back to the original question, I submit that the digital master will be more limited by the recording, the result will be that the advantages of analog playback will not be as well able to show themselves, compared to using an analog master. Therefore the differences between the CD and the LP from a digital master will be less distinct.

I know that this may be somewhat controversial, but I'm sticking to it.