Dedicated power lines-getting started

Chris, Lighten up!

"pay for the designs?" Are you kidding? All one had to do (as I did), was look through a Belden catalog for a fat-gauged all-Teflon shielded cable, and there they were: 883802, 3, 4, and 6.

I installed my 8380x lines two and 1/2 years ago, well before hearing of your "flavors". I won't argue the merits of intellectual property, as I suppose one can claim to reinvent the paper clip. That you published awareness of this cable was undoubtedly a fine service, but using a two conductor cable as a power line is NOT patentable, sir!

My "commercialization" is simply to finally be the mule who assembles this magical Belden cable with good connectors, a proper good-looking outer jacket, and instructions for assembly.And for an exceptionally low price.
How the hell can you call that infringement of your "design"? I understand the bruised ego, and suspect that you're now finally motivated to make a go of it with your own production variant, but your previous posts, ads and introductory price certainly seem to cast aspersions on 8380x, and that by twisting it extra hard, coloring it like skim milk, and softening its "hand" you can somehow reinvent the wheel, and now REALLY claim "intellectual property" improvements as well. That's fine. But this is indeed small potatoes. I've just heard from a guy in Brazil and one in Germany who are overwrapping my dearlittle $35 PCKit with a nylon "proprietary (HA!) cover" and getting dealers to sell it in the HUNDREDS!

You never chose to play that game. neither have I.
Over a hundred guys have thanked me for finally being the guy who put together a fine DIY PC Kit... just since Thanksgiving. I'm netting about $10/hr at this "commercialization". Ha!

So go ahead and take over this chore. But please desist from referring to this cable that you've loved all these years as being required to be replaced by a less "gawdy"
version that "takes it to the next level" because of your "intellectual property" needs. Your and my efforts are/were about avoiding the snake oil, no?

AC delivery is pretty simple stuff. Good copper, all-Teflon and shielding just about defines it, and you and I know that Belden covered it well. Now getting it code-legal with some easy to use, low-cost outer conduit is another story.

Maybe you should just make some zoomy CVH versions and go up against the big names at the dealer level?You've got a nice logo, website, and probably lots of connectons.
You can hide your milky magic in an opaque cover like others and offer a mid-priced cable that would outperform mamny others. Hell, just the stock Belden 83802 does that already. There ARE others out there simply using 83802 matrices hidden in Techflex, and charging $$$ for it.
I can understand your frustration, and decision to get into the game yourself.

I coinvented a widely used common lab tool called the Pipetman, and didn't make a nickel. But that doesn't mean that I need to reinvent a "next level" version and go up against my old self.

I wish you all the luck with your CVH ventures, but your defensiveness in casting aspersions on my bias in blind tests is a cheap shot, and not worthy of you. I simply would like to hear for myself what you've got. If it sounds better, and sits at a low price/ft, then it's an easy matter for you to grab some market by a fancy website and clever marketing. If most folks around here eventually can't perceive a difference, then the stock Belden 83802 will retain its place as the $2/ft giant-killer. But this you know already....

We're all grateful for your efforts, Chris. Please don't misinterpret mine. I'm not looking for a third career to cap off my work life by sqeezing for marketshare at the $2/ft or $35/PC level! It's just a nice service for fellow Audiogoners who want to build a PC or Power Box or two, and don't want to spend hundreds on raw materials bought in bulk, and/or just want a little hand-holding to get it done right.

We can easily coexist as allies in this small market where price-performance are so poorly correlated.
So please relax a little, stop feeling attacked or robbed, and good luck with your new biz. I'll probably refer MANY folks to you for spades and stuff in my remaining time here.

Keep well...you can let your guard down a little.
Ern

Not sure if my previous post got through, Audioengineer, but you have just described the "outside-ground" version of the Belden 83802 dedicated line we've been talking about.
Thanks for the idea about the plastic conduit. If this works then the argument's over. The advantage of this Belden is that it's shielded and all-Teflon dielectric.
I too think that 83802 (12/2, as you describe) with a countertwist outside ground might sound cleaner than 12/3 83803 correlated-twist internal ground. Great!

Has anyone else asked Belden tech support if 83802 or 03 is recommended for 110v power circuits? (besides me) It doesn't make much sense that putting a cable in a conduit when it is specifically designed to not need a conduit in the proper application would somehow make it suitable for a use for which it was not designed. Although I did not specifically ask Belden tech support about a conduit, they said their FPLP, Fire, Power Limited, Plenum (83802, etc.) is not designed for 110v power supply. They are to be used for "Control and Instrumentation" of fire alarms and tray applications.

Common commercial fire alarm systems have a main power transformer to which the FPLP cables are attached to carry 24v DC throughout a building. They are approved to be run through a plenum for the fire sensors and the teflon jacket is designed to withstand more heat in a fire and not give off the levels of toxic gas like other wire jacket materials. The system can be tied to a battery back-up with the DC voltage.

Since the braided shield on the 83802 is inadequate for a safety ground, it makes sense to run a separate ground wire in a conduit. That does not mean the conduit will allow the use of 83802. Ask Belden tech support, if they say OK I won't continue to challenge what my research indicates is reckless advice for house wiring. Then all you have to do is convince the electrical inspector to go along with it. Good luck!

This flap has gotten me curious so I looked into it.
I noticed long ago at the bottom of the Venhaus DIY sitethe disclaimer:
Legal Stuff:
All content on this site is property of Christopher J. VenHaus copyright 1999-2002, all rights reserved. All images are copyright protected and may not be distributed in any manner without written permission. I do not endorse, and expressly forbid attempts to "commercialize" any of my cable designs for profit, without permission.

Now I see Subaruguru's post from 11-14-02 saying he's been making cords using the "VH design" for a couple of years and routinely selling them (for a profit). While I think it's a useful service to combine the excellent design with a one source shopping for all the materials needed to make the cords, was permission ever asked of the designer?

I think we need to cut through the smoke screen, stop the emotional outbursts, and give credit where credit is due.

Ernie, AKA Subaruguru: You state in your post:

>>>I installed my 8380x lines two and 1/2 years ago, well >>>before hearing of your "flavors".

I noticed that in this and several other posts, you state that you have used this cable for 2 years, and now you are saying you installed 2 1/2 years ago. Well, sir. I believe your math or memory needs a little work.

In a post you made here at Audiogon on >>>11-02-01<<< you state:

>>>"What about that nifty 12/2 copper-over-teflon Belden >>>83802 or 83803 I've just read about. Stiff, I imagine, >>>but a giant-killer?? Help!".

11-02-01 to current time is not 2 1/2 years. I would also like to point out that I first published my recipe in MAY of 2001, a full 6 months before you "heard about it".

I'll let the other members here decide for themselves who they want to do business with, but can you at least be more careful about your facts going forward?

Lastly, I'm asking you for the last time to stop making reference to my designs in your ads.

Best,

Chris VenHaus aka ChrisVH
VH Audio
www.venhaus1.com