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Has anyone else ever reached an audio impasse?

Perhaps I should explain -

A friend of mine has a VERY high resolution system which would retail close to the $100K mark. Each component upgrade he has made over the years has been based upon comparison between components. He has built a fantastic system.

Now here is the problem -
Recently he and I compared his source CD player which is the top model currently available under 15K, against a Sony 9000 ES SACD/DVD player. We A/B compared them.

After extended listening, we found the differences to be so minor that it was difficult to detect which was better. We did the comparisons with Redbook CD vs SACD, RedBook vs. Redbook and still the 15K CD player was only marginally (.05%) better.

The 15K CD player had better more expensive interconnects and power cords than the Sony which was using a stock power cord an old Audioquest Topaz (cheap) interconnects.

In previous listening sessions over the past year we had compared the same Sony 9000 CD/DVD/SACD player against MANY other CD players ranging in price from 2000 all the way up to 7000 and on redbook CD's the Sony always got it's butt kicked! It sounded hollow - with a recessed midrange - electronic - over emphasized highs, etc.

Then - I took a 100 Toshiba DVD player to his house and tried it against his 15K CD player. It sounded the same as the Sony. In fact, the 100 Toshiba sounded as good if not better in some ways than the Sony DVD player but...still was .05% out classed by the 15K CD player.

With each source component in these auditions, the soundstage remained VERY large, images were perfect and tonal balance couldn't be better. The subtlety of the changes between the various source components would be best described as perceived rather than actual.

I am curious to know if anyone else has experienced this type of an impasse. I know the $100 DVD player should not sound like the 15K CD player (at least it never did before)
but it does now. Why??

Could there be a bottle-neck somewhere? Could the character of an pre or amplifier be so strong it restricts performance of a source component? What could cause this to happen?

Help please...
bwhite
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drubin
3,274 posts
 
Is your comparison done as a rapid A/B switching back and forth between the two components? My experience is that a rapid A/B methodology obscures the differences between components. Listen for a while, then switch to the other component and listen to the same music.
bwhite OP
807 posts
 
Tom - good idea. I might try that!

Mike - I kind of agree with you about my friends CD player - its cost and how it "doesn't necessarily" sound better than a less expensive CD or DVD player. But I have to tell you, he wouldn't have purchased it if it didn't sound better.

I feel our choices in interconnects have been well thought out and most systems of this caliber do not use low end components anywhere. One thing this auditioning has enlightened us to is how much the Hydra colors the sound of the system. While we like it on source components, it is too much for the whole system. A haze develops - similar to the sugar coated sweetness common to Acoustic Zen Silver Reference ICs.

Drubin, We were doing A/B switching but NOT back and forth immediately - rapidly. We listened extensively to each source.

What kills me here is with a LOW QUALITY preamp, we are able to hear the difference between the CD players. With a very high-end or even a decent preamp, the difference between the players diminishes. Seems like the better the preamp the less the character of the source matters.

We are using (and rotating) a combination of Valhalla Interconnects, NBS Statement, and Stealth PGS. Speaker cables are AudioNote AN-SPz Kondo. PC's have been Shunyata KC v1 and NBS Statement on source. Electraglide FatMan 2000 K's on Pre and Amps.
sean
6,231 posts
 
Mike aka Awdeeofyle brings up some interesting points along with all of the others. To further extend Mike's comments, i will say that there is a LOT more to building a "killer" system than just having "killer components" regardless of price. I ( and many others ) have noticed that some combo's sound "good" while others perform "magic". A lot of this comes about through trial and error or systematic cable swaps. Whether you want to believe it or not, even Frank Van Alstine ( a renowned "cable curmudgeon" ) had to admit that SOME cable changes CAN alter the performance / sonics of a system to the benefit of the end user.

With that in mind, you might want to try finding what you think is the best digital source for your demands and then tweak it into further compliance with the rest of the system with various cables. This might mean a simple substitution of a digital cable from transport to dac, an analogue cable from dac to pre, substituting both cables, etc.. This SHOULD be done one at a time and then in various combo's. Sometimes you'll find that "fatty" compliments "skinny" and you end up with two well rounded performers with different strengths and weaknesses. The bottom line though is that they compliment each other.

NEVER take for granted that one cable is superior to the others based on brand or price. It just isn't true. We are more worried about system SYNERGY than anything else here. Especially what something costs or how "prestigious" the names are.

When you find the "right" ( actually "most suitable" ) combination of cables with your specific components, you will know it right away. There will be a certain "liquidity", "air", "depth", "detail", "impact", etc... without loosing any bit of "musicality" that many people strive for, but few achieve. Hence the accumulation of TONS of money in a system that just doesn't sound "right". Sean
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sean
6,231 posts
 
One more thing: Your "better" preamp might simply present a load that most digital components feel "comfortable" with. As such, they can all perform at peak or near peak performance, making the differences less noticeable. Some would say that this is a bad thing, as it masks subtle differences or "sugar coats" everything. Others would say that it is a good thing, as it brings out the best in even lower priced equipment and narrows the gap in potential. Sean
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bwhite OP
807 posts
 
Sean - thank you for the wisdom. I do not believe we are taking anything for granted or making any presumptions based upon price or brand for cables. Each component and each cable was purchased one-at-a-time based upon synergy and what it gave (or in some cases took) to the system.

The inability to determine various source components from one another has very little to do with synergy at this point. In fact, it has more to do with the validity of this practice of high end audio and system building all together.
Which is why I have called it the "impasse" it seems like the system has been built out to its maximum potential.

In fact, it sounds like a 100K system regardless of source component. SACD's do not sound any better than regular CD's. I know it's strange but this is where we are.

This person first used B&W N 805 speakers and Krell KAV components prior to slowly upgrading and hence building his 100K system. Each step along the way made significant improvements - now it seems that nothing can improve on the system. Certin components only ad color (Hydra) but lend nothing to the musicality of the performance - the clarity - the micro/macro dynamics, liquidity, etc.

Sean, I would have to agree that perhaps the better preamps are somehow enabling the weaker sources and in effect diminishing capabilites of the better sources upstream. This is the only real explaination for what we have experienced. Somewhere there is a "coating" being applied that limits some sources and benefits others.

This impasse seems even more impassable right now.
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