What's wrong with classical music on vinyl?

Albertporter...Too bad that comments you disagree with tend to get lost in the great Audiogon computer.

1. Have you ever actually measured the signal to noise ratio of the LP medium? It isn't that hard.

2. What is the separation spec for your phono pickup (at various frequencies)?

3. By what means do you determine that I have never auditioned High End phono equipment?

4. I will give you the benefit of my doubt, and say that there is no surface noise generated in your superb phono playback system.

But some of us, like Sufentanil, live in the real world where surface noise is the major sonic deficiency of LPs. How else would you explain the great lengths to which the industry and audiophiles have, at one time or another, gone to adress this issue.
...RIAA equalization
...sratch filters in preamps
...outboard dynamic noise filters
...click and pop eliminators
...DBX records
...Compression of the audio program
...Audiophile LPs and 45 rpm recordings.
...Improved vinyl formulation
...Record cleaning machines and cleaning substances
...Extremely complex and expensive turntables and arms

I am sure I missed a few. All this effort was not expended for no purpose.

I have said that some people can "listen through" the noise, and of course I try to do this when I listen to my LPs. Perhaps there are other positive factors which make the noise acceptable. But don't say there is no noise (except in your own system).

Eldartford: Please come to my house. I have several frequent flyer tickets. Free trip for you. Bring any measuring equipment you want. Anytime you care to show up is fine with me.

Listen to my digital setup. Then listen to my vinyl setup. Your ears will tell you. Listen for noise, then listen for music.

A friend of mine said it best yesterday, this is like saying you don't like driving a Ferrari because the ride is little rough...who cares...everything else is AMAZING.

my 2cents worth--

most people start buying (used) classical music by the state of the vinyl. The cleaner the copy, the better, is the starting reference point.

Totally wrong, IMHO. Those records s**k, because the previous owner didn't like it and NEVER LISTENED TO IT. Get the classical records that look like they've had a long, happy, busy life.

Listen to it, get past the surface noise, etc. and if you like the music, find the same LP in better shape.

Sufentanil ,

I listen to classical 95% of the time, every sub-genre imaginable from pre-Gregorian chant to avant-garde 20th C. and everything in between. About 2,000 LP's in all, 500 bought new in the 1970's-80's, the remainder bought new and used in the past two years.

I had several 1970's low/mid-fi rigs and for the last two years a pretty high end new rig, not quite at the level of Rushton's or Albert's Walkers but fairly close.

The mid-fi rigs, without exception, made surface noise noticeable. That was the major reason I fell into the CD wasteland for 15 years or so.

The new, high end rig renders those noises nearly inaudible. The most common non-musical noise coming from my LP's is tape hiss, which of course would be prevalent on an analog recording no matter what playback medium was used. The noises you complained of rarely exist in my system, with the exception of a few obviously damaged records. When those noises do occur they are infrequent and at such a low level that they are never distracting, at least to us or to any of our visitors.

I fear this experience may confirm something Albert alluded to, that a commitment to a certain level of equipment is necessary. This is especially true for classical, due to the wide dynamic range you've already discussed. Proper cleaning and exacting setup are also essential, as others have emphasized.

At a guess, the lowest level TT/arm/cartridge that might satisfy you in respect of noise would probably retail (new) for $2000 or so. Better phono stages can also make a significant contribution to noise reduction, since lower quality circuits are more easily overloaded by the sharp transients typical of most such noise.

This may not be what you want to hear of course. It may even be wrong! Cello's suggestion of listening to some of your records on a better system would be an easy way to find out. Take one or two of those new audiophile releases along also. That will tell you a great deal about how much is vinyl vs. how much is your system.