Beyond SACD with Redbook: Price No Object

Amidst all this discussion, we should remember that many SACD-CD comparisons have been made with Redbook CD masters remastered in SACD, which is hardly the same thing as comparing CD to true DSD-recorded music. I'd go so far as to say that unless a given "tester" specifies that he or she used real DSD mastered SACDs, we cannot assume the comparison was between true SACD and Redbook PCM. The PCM master limits the quality of the DSD remaster even before it is made.

Another point, possibly more important. PCM is a technology that engineers have been refining for over 20 years. It's improved greatly over the years and for that I am grateful. However, at this stage the theoretical limits of the technology are being reached. Improvements are tiny little steps; real, but tiny. DSD, however, is still in its infancy and we can look forward to many years of improvement and refinement.

It's perfectly sensible to want a top-shelf player for CD, since we all have a lot of great music locked up in our PCM CDs that we want to enjoy, but as native DSD recordings become more available, CD will gradually be left further and further behind.

That's my take on it, at least for now.

Happy listening all!

Joel.

I have to agree with JcbTubes - I too owned the Marantz SA-1 and while it is a great player felt it had a level of detail that was "in your face" on SACDs. Redbook was just okay. I then purchased an EMC-1 MkII and thought it was a bit better. Ultimately I settled on the Mephisto II which doesn't immediately present itself as being better, instead it seduces and captivates you over time and honestly becomes quite addictive. Scary! There is something that the Mephiso does which is different than any other player I've heard. Its virtues are not in hyper-detail but the way the music simply envelops you with that certain delicacy - the layered soundstage - depth between the speakers - texture... it really is amazing and I prefer that character to any SACD recording on ANY SACD player.

Gendut: SACD is detailed and seems to have more spacial information than ordinary Redbook. But... if you listen closely to your Mephisto compared to an SACD player, you will find that SACDs (as played by most current units) are simply not involving. The Sony XA777ES comes close to making this better however. Sony took a step back with this unit and seems to have tried to acheive a more "analog" presentation vs. hyper detail. This helps to make the SACDs sound a bit more involving but makes the gap between well recorded redbook and SACD seem much, much smaller.

Sugarbrie - I think someone like George Lucas has been playing with a lot of the recordings. Take a look at Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. How many times has that baby been re-issued? And now in Multi-Channel??

I have made a direct side by side of my heavily modified Sony SCD-1 to the Mephisto II. My SCD-1 with full Audiocom modifications is well beyond the Mephisto II in redbook, SACD is another level still. Do not forget how often people said cd would fail, then vinyl was dead.
If you want to believe in your up-sampled 16 bit for $$$$$ fine, if you have an open mind to what is possible, then SACD is here!
A side note, I was playing My SACD hybrid Alison Krauss "Forget About It" for a friend the other night. He was in heaven and I was squirming. It was flat and lifeless. The glow and shimmer of the strings was gone, the depth of her voice and the image of her chest and throat were missing. I was so unhappy with what I heard I stopped the player and turned up the lights to see if something was messed up. Turns out I forgot to switch to SACD, once again I returned to nirvana. If people don't hear the greatness of SACD, they simply are not able to hear.

My take on this is that every post here is correct in some way.

Redbook CD is the format for right now, lots of software and availability of the latest releases. Makes sense for those who are digital as an only source to get the best they can from their expensive system.

SACD is potentially a far superior format. It has not had time to evolve to it's ultimate capability. Some of us have heard the potential and are hoping for it's success.

My reference is analog. Still the ultimate performer at cost no object for high end audio consumers. Analogs problems are obvious. Requires great mechanical skill to make it work at its maximum potential, limited software for newer releases and expensive when your goal is the ultimate.

My reason for buying a CD / SACD / DVD player is because every time in the past that I bought state of the art Redbook digital, I got screwed.

Two things happen with ultra high end Redbook rigs. First you pay a lot of money to get what is the ultimate. Second you are outdated as quickly as buying a new computer.

It is not just the money that bothers me. I would pay almost any amount to get digital perfection. Buy the best and have it perform as well or better than my analog. I would have no regrets. I can tell you that based on trying dozens of digital play back systems that is simply not going to happen. At least with Redbook technology.

So, in the end, you can pay $10K, $20K, or more for Redbook playback and still not get state of the art. You can buy analog and get state of the art and not be able to access the latest software.

Or you can buy state of the art analog, a inexpensive CD / SACD and listen only to your favorite music that is unavailable on LP, and wait for things to get better.

If things don't get better, having $900.00 invested for both CD ( flawed ) and SACD ( not evolved ) formats is a comfortable place to be.

Now where is that 45 RPM single sided, virgin vinyl, 180 gram pressing of "Kind Of Blue?" The one that actually sounds like Miles.

Re, B's 4/19 question: redbook vs. remastered *to* sacd; Agreed, B! During a quick and relaxed comparison with a friend (he only brought 2 discs and his Sony 1), we actually favoured the redbook on my S-Line cdp over the sacd layer on the Sony. Of course, no original DSD recording involved (which is impressive, if fatiguing to my ears). Cheers!