SACD 2 channel vs Redbook 2 Channel

Durham42, comparing a Sony with the Linn is not a fair test, the Linn is arguably the best one-box player out there, at least to my ears, and the Burmester is a top of the line DAC, while the stock Sony is comparable to a Wadia 830/850 level player at best. What was your impression when you listened to both redbook and SACD through the Sony's output stage? That's really the appropriate test.

This thread is too long for me to digest everything said, but I'll throw in my two cents on at least one aspect of the question. As I hinted above, one of the limiting factors in comparing SACD (or DVD-A, for that matter) to redbook CD has been that the best of the high end manufacturers, as well as the recording industry, have spent the last 20 years trying to make redbook CD sound the best it can, but SACD and DVD-A are still in their comparative infancy, and the best of the designers (save Meridian, Ed Meitner and dCS) have not really been willing to throw a lot of money into R&D for formats which might not make it in the marketplace. To some extent the hi-rez situation reminds me of the early days of CD, where there were a lot of modifiers out there who would take major manufacturers' cost-compromised offerings (principally Philips/Magnavox units then, as they were the easiest to work with) and come up with modded units that were far better than the originals but certainly no match for today's players. I see the same going on with hi-rez units (I've had a lot of the mods made to my Sony SACD player). The question is whether the formats will take hold enough for talented designers to devote the time and effort they did to CD; if they do, then you might see the promise both of these formats hold be realized.

Ears I wonder how many of those European players are stand alone SACD/CD machines?
I would think the majority are low end Sony DVD players and indeed the entry level universal machines.
Sure this doesn't mean that the owners won't become SACD supporters but I wouldn't bet on it.
Similarly I would imagine a very large proportion of SACD disc sales this year will be down to the major hybrid releases.
The format clearly has potential to enter into the mainstream in terms of being the dominant format but I doubt that it will happen.
Can you name me one serious SACD machine released this year for a European audiophile to consider in the £2-£3.5k margin?
Believe me I know what is available in the UK better than some sales figures,there was next to nothing to consider to match the Ayre CX-7 I had heard.
There's a real gap in the market from the early high end Sony machines,the early Marantz and indeed the new high end players such as Linn and Krell which have just been released.
Even these real high end players are meeting with mediocre reviews but even avoiding that issue and their incredible price-it would appear from a strategic point of view SACD players are coming out(mainly)on two levels-low cost universal machines and real ultra-high end machines.
I'm answering this because your points are clearly aimed at this European Audiogoner.
I think Rcprince makes some good points above and indeed there is some worthwhile debate on both sides of the fence,if only people could leave out the need to insult each other out.
I'd also like to add despite my so-called anti-SACD tag I do not agree with everything negative written about the format.

Tbg name the 5 players you say best the Sony SCD-1 please?

Tbg/Rcprince: You state that comparing a Sony SACD player is not a fair comparison with a machine such as the Linn Sondek CD12. Why wouldn't this be a fair comparison? The SACD format from reading all of the posts up above is supposed to be superior to redbook. So reagrdless of how good my cd player can play redbook cd's, shouldn't it still be a step down from even an average SACD player? This in itself I thought was the actual argument.

Through all the useless babble and arguing I feel Rittori did hit on quite a few good points. What is too bad is that there haven't been too many good rebuttals to these points that were made.

A few points I felt were valid on Ritteri's and others behalf include,

1. SACD's poor high frequency reproduction ability
2. Poor linear noise floor throughout the audible range and beyond
3. Future potential
4. Current lack of sound quality improvements over Redbook
5. Lack of good software

I added in #3 because personally 96khz is in reality not a very big jump up from standard 44.1khz. DVD-A intrigues me with its 192khz sampling rate which has alot more potential than SACD and its very low linear noise floor, there is alot more potential here, whether it ever takes off is anyone's guess.

As for my SACD player not being a current high end model, I don't doubt it. But the Accuphase DP-77 did nothing more to further my current findings, and this is considered to be a very high quality unit which I also had on loan for a few weeks last month.

If I had the choice over again, I would not have purchased the SACD unit. I would rather spend a few thousand more on an excellent redbook player which already has a huge software base with proven sound over a next generation SACD player with lots of question marks about its future and sound potential.

Ben, have you listened to an MF,Krell, Linn ect hi end sacd player?

You are not the only one in this thread using the worldwide approach to peddle your opinion.
It just so happens that worldwide includes Europe and that is what the sales data article is about.

I am sure you are right about the total including el cheapo players but the total for dvd-a is made up of 99.8% el cheapo players and still SACD has outsold dvd-a players 4 to 1 in Europe.
If I meant Ben only, I would single you out.

I do not expect SACD to be a dominant format whith so much free music available to those who just want music and quality be dammed.

I also think you Ben, should at least hear a few quality sacd players and discs before ever even giving an opinion on the format when comparing an el cheapo SACD player to a hi end redbook player.

Instead, your opinion reads that an el cheapo bottom of the line SACD player does not sound as good to your ears as a very hi end redbook player...therefore the technology is flawed.