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How to Achieve Great Imaging & Soundstage

Hey 'Goners,

While my primary system is in flux, I'm starting to think about revamping my second system, which employs monitor sized speakers in a small (16x16) living room. I love audible holigraphy!!! My desire is to put together a system that creates great 3D imaging and soundstage. While this thread may use my current setup as an example - its real intent is to get advice for/from all interested agoners about the most important factors required to achieve great imaging and soundstage: speakers, electronics, tweaks, room acoustics...

My current system consists of a Classe CAP-101 integrated attached to Triangle Titus 202 speakers using AQ Slate cables. The CD players vary from an Arcam FMJ CD23 to a Cary CD308, using Kimber PBJ IC's. The room is 16x16 and organized on the diaganol, with the speakers on either side of a loveseat (a necessary 'no-no' due to space constraints). The ceiling is doube-high and tilted down to the rear. I currently don't get much imaging at all, even if I remove the loveseat. The sound is overall good, though a bit bright, and I think the upper-end of the Titus speakers is a bit edgy and unrestrained - probably needs a shift in system synergy. It's a carpeted room with stuffed furniture, but the walls are bare and hard and there is a picture window with a fabric shade.

So what is most important: componentry or setup? While in San Francisco last week I audioned Totem Mani-2 and Model 1 speakers, as well as B&W N805's (all driven by a Rotel CDP, Aragon preamp, and ??? SS amp). The latter two speakers provided very good soundstage and imaging, but the Mani-2 wasn't as good. I note that the N805 appeared to get good imaging partly from its high frequency emphasis, and I was wondering whether the Model 1's achieved good imaging due to their small size. Is small size a big boon towards good imaging??? I'm also wondering how much difference the electronics could have been making. Even though imaging fell short in 1/3 speakers, how much are electronics a necessary key ingrediant?

So the questions I want to pose here are:

1) WHAT IS YOUR HIERCHIAL APPROACH TO ACHIEVING EXCELLENT IMAGING AND SOUNDSTAGE?

2) IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR GEAR THAT YOU WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND TO ACHIEVE THIS END?

I'll be attending CES in January, and will be listening for the best in this realm. But they only show current gear - and older, used components are a resource not to be ignored.

Thanks All.
peter_s
jlambrick
138 posts
 
I've gone to the extent of creating a "Live End, Dead End" room in order to eliminate early reflections. The early relections are what your auditory system uses as cues for determining the spatial location of a sound source and the room signature can create conflicting messages. If the recorded source is good, the imaging of my system seems very accurate for height, width, and depth. I also tend to prefer a deadish room because it doesn't superimpose a small room signature over the recorded ambience but this approach requires more power for a given perceived loudness.
judit
217 posts
 
Slawney, curious you should mention the angled walls at the front of the room.

I just finished reading a technical artical on the Sequerra site that recommends inserting quasi walls of absorbing material angled behind the speakers in rectangular rooms. There was a window between the speakers.

In my own contemporary listening room, the front walls are angled at 15 degrees. Looks just like the picture in the article. From an empirical perspective, My speakers image very very well.
slawney
242 posts
 
Judit, thanks, angled walls can sometimes improve imaging, given the right room configuration, and speaker-listener placement. In the same sense, exactly parallel walls can also destroy imagining. My remarks on wall/room geometry were too general, and techinical articles and books on room acoustics should always be consulted. There are even computer programs and websites which allow you to determine speaker position after you type in the room dimensions.
914nut
100 posts
 
I'm also using the live end/dead end approach in my 17' X 24' dedicated room.

As to the point or line source, I feel this is especially critical. It results in a single sweet spot, but that's the price I'm willing to pay for best imaging/soundstage.

I have SoundLab A3s and have found I get the best results by actually toeing them out so that when seated in the sweetspot, my line-of-sight is perpendicular to only the inside one or two panels of the diaphragm (direct line/point source). This eliminates the rather diffuse radiation pattern, while still providing use of the total surface for bass frequency generation.

YMMV
pmi_guy
72 posts
 
Peter - I agree with Tubegroover that some audiophiles want a certain sound and others are more into the musical experience. I lean towards the musical experience where the sound is as if I'm in the jazz club or else the performers are in my room. Initially I thought that imaging was the most important factor for the "in-room" experience. As I've progressed on the upgrade path, I realize that sound characteristics such as tonal accuracy, micro-detail, dynamic range, lack of noise, etc. are as important as imaging in the illusion of reality.

While my experience and the quality of my system is not near many of the others on this site, I'd like to give a few examples of what I've found. The addition of a tube pre-amp improved imaging tremendously but seemingly more important was the "black" backgound cause by the absense of noise. Upgrading the amp also improved imaging but seemingly because of tighter bass (I'd read about this but experiencing was something else). Upgrading the cd player added stunning detail (Arcam Alpha 9, similar to your FMJ). All of these increased the brightness to unacceptable levels so I upgraded to NOS tubes which now provide the spaciousness, depth and liquidity. It's been a fun process, with more left to go.

During this whole time I've kept the same speakers and relatively constant speaker positioning. This is not to say that speakers and positioning are unimportant. To the contrary, I like to think that I'm saving the best for last. Speaker positioning will always be limited in this room to due the constraints of reality however I pull them out from the wall and play with placement for serious listening sessions.

I have a few recommendations for you. IMHO, your cd players and speakers should be capable of giving good imaging. Although the Classe amp is well regarded, I'd play with tubes. You can buy a tubed integrated with NOS tubes here on Audiogon and then sell either the Classe or the tubed unit after you've experimented. I think that the tubes will fix the brightness while improving imaging, especially depth. Secondly, pick a time when the wife is away and re-arrange the room. Put the speakers at the one end in positions recommended by Cardas. Drag out pillows and comforters for deadening, if necessary. I think that setting your room up on the diagonal may be your big problem as it goes against all the recommendations.

Hope this helps.
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