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Round Two: Best Speakers for LOUD music and rock??

Hi:

ROUND TWO, here we go.......

I listen to mostly rock, classic rock, female vocals, and the occasional dramatic symphony or opera, VERY LOUDLY.

I posted here before, and, taking everyone's comments into account, I purchased a used set of Genesis Vs.

They are great speakers, but failed for me in three critical areas: One, they seem to cause my amps to shut down at much lower volume than my present NHT 3.3s (even though the Genesis are rated as 3dB higher efficiency -- 90dB/4 ohms, as opposed to 87dB/4 ohms for the 3.3s), two, I cannot successfully couple these speakers to my room in such a way as to make the bass taut, dynamic and authoritative, and three, they do not image, in my room, as well as the 3.3s. Not even close.

My main system now consists of:

NHT 3.3s,
NHT SubTwo Subwoofer (60Hz & below only)
Cary 306/200 CD Player,
Sony XA 777es SACD player,
BAT VK5i preamp,
Audio Research M300mkII tube monoblocks,
MIT 750 Shotgun Tube Biwires,
MIT 350 Twin 30' ICs,
AudioZen Silver mkII I/Cs for front end.

I have a LARGE listening room with lots of glass & high sloping ceilings, app. 20x40 ft. w/18' ceilings.

I want to try again to upgrade my speakers, and I am considering a used pair of either Dunlavy SC-Vs, JM Mezzo Utopias, Legacy Focus, VMPS, Montana XP, Revel Ultima Studios, etc., etc.

My system is a tad bright right now, but not objectionably so. The imaging is stellar, and the soundstage depth is good, not great. I want smooth, rich, warm sound, yet detailed and clear, and as I said, I listen at VERY loud volumes for extended periods of time. I MUST have the slam and tight, low bass needed for the type of music I listen to.

Because of the size of speakers involved, I will obviously not be able to hear them with my system 'til I buy them, but, I guess I can just buy a good used pair here on Audiogon & sell them and try another pair if I need to.

Any comments/suggestions?

Thanks - Jeff
jeffj
mgattmch
573 posts
 
Jeff,

My last listening room was similar in size to yours (but not 18' high), I also like very loud rock music occasionally. The speakers that worked for me in this situation are the B&W Nautilus 801s, bi-amped with a pair of Pioneer Elite M91s. Believe you me, this system will play as loud as your hearing can stand and remain crystal clear. Furthermore, bass slam is frightening. In my opinion, the Nautilus 801s are among the very best in overall sound quality of any loudspeaker system I have heard. Although you can't in my opinion beat QUAD ESL 63s for pure musicality of sound (useless on loud rock unfortunately).

Incidentally; if you want to experience truly loud and dynamic sound, try the 43 second “The Garage Door” track on the HiFi News HFN003 test disc. I have had people run for the door when playing this loud. If you want to experience truly loud rock music with amazing bass slam, try Frankie Goes To Hollywood two tribes or the soundtrack from the movie Run Lola Run.

I too share the same point of view as Sdcampbell. Playing music very loud for protracted periods of time will definitely damage your hearing, there are plenty of aging rock musicians around to prove the point.

Regards,

Marcus
jeffj OP
7 posts
 
Mejames:

What I mean when I say, "the amps shut down," is that at loud listening levels, especially on crescendos, one or the other of the mono amps' protection circuit will click in and shut the amp down - a protection light goes off (actually, the right-hand green pilot light goes dim), the amp mutes the output, and I have to shut the power off, wait 5-10 seconds, and restart so that the protection circuit resets.

Personally, I think it's 'cause the amp uses only (8) 6550s to produce 300 watts, and since they have to be driven to max levels to get that kind of output wattage, the protection circuit is aggressive and overly sensitive. IMHO.

Thanks - Jeff
sean
6,231 posts
 
When is the last time that you've changed or at least checked your output tubes ? Can you give us an example of what types of bands / music send your amps into "thermal shock" ?

For the record, with the sensitivity levels that you are talking about with those speakers and that size room, you'll need about four times the amount of power that you have to actually start "rocking". Either that or you'll have to find some speakers that are at least 95 dB's efficient and 8 ohms.

In my opinion and experience, you can't pressurize a room that size with 300 wpc running full range unless you have VERY efficient speakers, a LOT of drivers or preferably both.

Given the info that you just added to this thread, i'd start looking at the Montana's and the Legacy's. I don't know if you'll like the sound or imaging of either of these, but they should give you the volume that you're looking for. The Dunlavy's just aren't efficient enough for what you want to do and the amount of power that you have. Picking up some LARGE, very HIGH powered subs might also help out quite a bit, as it would relieve a LOT of strain and current draw on the tubes. Sean
>

PS... Let me know when you've given up hope, picked up four Klipsch Heresy's and are ready to start modifying them : )
octopus
52 posts
 
There are some ESP Concert Grands for sale on the 'gon right now for around $4600. These have 3 Scanspeak 8" woofers, 2 5" DynAudio midranges, and 2 1" Seas tweeters (one fires out of phase) per side. Sensitivity is advertised at 96 dB, they are rated to 500 watts, and response is 25 - 20 +- 3.
I own a pair and they will fill a large room and play very loud, no problem. The speakers are no longer in production, but the price is right (they cost $15,000 new).
Rock is all I play on them. Those are not mine for sale.
I just think they fit the bill.
twl
3,251 posts
 
Why not try some professional sound reinforcement speakers? A couple of big "scoop" type bass bins, a big horn loaded midrange, and a compression horn tweeter, just like they use on stage, with tri-amping, might be just what you'd like.

They won't cost $30k, and might just have exactly the sound you are looking for, because that is what you used to hear at those older rock shows on stage.

It won't have anything to do with accuracy, but it sounds to me that accuracy is not what you are after. You want hard rock with ear bleeding SPL. This is exactly what professional sound reinforcement systems are designed to do.

I am not joking about this, even though it may seem like it. This type of equipment is what the bands you are listening to, rely on for their on-stage performances. If you are listening to "electronically amplified" instruments and music, and not acoustic material, this is what the stuff normally comes out of, during a performance.

I think that part of your problem, is that you are trying to use "delicate" audio equipment, that is designed for accurately reproducing acoustic and vocals naturally, to create a "rock show" environment. This is not the right application for that. Just get what they use a "rock shows" and you'll have what you are looking for.
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