Where are your maggies??


Hi,

Just took delivery of a pair of Magnepan 3.6 R's and I'm just starting to get a handle on their sound and at the same time having some placement issues.
I'm using a Belles 250i integrated, which despite it's modest power rating seems to handle the Maggie's incredibly well....large, open soundstage, dynamic, no compression to speak of at higher spl's etc.

My only issue so far is that the overal balance and presentation is a little on the bright side of neutral, more so than the monitors that I've used for the past 6 years or so. Also, bass is definately on the 'lean' side, which doesn't help with the issue of a bright tonal balance.
I'm wondering if my room is mostly to blame for the forward presentation, and wondered if any Maggie owners could cast some light on their own placement issues with 3.6's and what steps they may have taken to overcome the forward presentation and lack of bass. I know that placement with the Maggie's is critical and so far I've spent two evenings making adjustments without any real impact to the overal sound. I have some issues with reflective surfaces, but the speakers are 10' clear from the front wall, 25 or so feet clear from one side wall, 12' clear from the other side wall and 18' from the listening chair with 3' behind the chair to the back wall. So room reflections ought not to be a significant issue given their proximity to the room boundaries.(also, they are 12 feet apart with slight toe-in and the tweeters on the outside).

I've messed around with distance from side and front wall, distance from listening seat, distance between speakers, toe-in angle, and have switched the speakers around between tweeters inside and outside.
The changes in position have effected the soundstage, imaging depth/width but have not really altered bass response or the tonal balance to any real degree.

I'm wondering if these are just inherrently 'bright' speakers with no bass??....though I have heard people claiming to get great bass response from 3.6's and have never heard anyone claiming that they are overly bright. (I've got the Maggie supplied tweeter attenuator installed also, by the way).

Should I be trying anything else as far as placement is concerned, what have others used to tame a forward sound??

Should I be concerned about the amp?...it is an integrated with a tube pre and solid state power stage, and most people describe it's sound as warm, full and tube-like.

Sorry for posting yet another 'Magnepan' thread, but my instinct is that these speakers are capable of much more than I'm getting out of them, and I have the space to allow them to 'breathe' with a room approx 30x60.
I do however have a limited budget for amps, $3k max, though I suspect the Belles is really a great amp that is up to the task of handling these puppies.

Any ideas, insights or tweaks would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,

Rooze

rooze
OK, Roose, here's a serious response that may actually help you. I owned the 3.6s for 6 months and ran them in a room 16X25 (about 1/4 of your space, I think, but my experience may still be appropriate for you). I bought them new, and during the first month I had reservations exactly like yours. I tried a decent subwoofer (REL Stadium) but found it dirtied up the midrange a bit and changed, but did not improve, the character of the bass. (This has always been my complaint about using subwoofers with full-range speakers, feel free to think I'm nuts if you want). I got a selection of resistors from the dealer ranging from 1 to 5 ohms. This helped with the brightness issue, and it can be fun to play with different values and jumper wires. Amps ranged from Belles 150 to Sim W-10s (1250wpc into 4 ohms). While I agree with many of the comments regarding the need for high wattage/current, I think your 250i, with 250wpc into 4 ohms and 30 amps peak current, should be sufficient for you to find out if you're really going to love these speakers. Three factors were most important in
getting me to love mine: (1)the Maggies broke in over 30 days, (2)my ears broke in (surprise!)in just about the same period--i.e. my frame of bass reference went from big, deep, somewhat bloaty cone bass to leaner, better defined panel bass that had shape and tonal color; and I became accustomed to, and welcomed, the pristine detail available from the remarkable Maggie high-frequency ribbon. As the days passed, I went from the 5 ohm resistor to the 2, the 1, and eventually none. Let's not forget (3) room placement: I found I was able to hear more bass by placing my chair closer to the back wall. You're at 3 feet now--try bringing it back to a foot or two. Bring the speakers much closer to you if the room arrangement/traffic flow allows--I bet they're getting swallowed up in that big room. I listened to my Maggies in a semi near-field position, with the speakers 10-12 feet away from my ears, and my ears about 2 feet from the back wall. Side walls are irrelevant in your case. Toe-in is most crucial to the tonal balance and of course tweeter position is too. Try putting the tweeters to the inside with extreme (45 degree) toe-in, and adjust back in 1-inch increments. Start with the speakers only 8 feet apart on center (this should fill the hole and "warm" the sound quite a bit. The idea here is to create your own little room inside the big room, but with the speakers facing in to the "room" instead of outward into your huge space, as others have suggested. You're mostly there already--I'm just suggesting you shrink the listening area a bit. Break-in of both speakers and ears, and demands of certain musical material, will probably have you adjusting speaker width and depth, flipping tweeter postion and diddling with resistors and jumpers as time goes on. All part of the audiophile fun.
My point is that the 3.6s can be fussy bastards, but they're worth it. I sold mine in a fit of audiophilia nervosa ("onward and upward!") but nothing I've had since then--all WAY more expensive, has given me as many goosebumps. I hope you don't give up on them too soon.
The Cardas room setup uses the short wall as front. From your description, it sounds like your front wall is the long wall.
In either case, 10 feet is probably too far from the front wall (behind the speakers).
A search came up with this site which may help:
room setup

My REL Stadium III is set in the room using the easy steps from the distributor's website and it sounds great. It dials in at B2, 34 hz on the chart. I have not used a meter to determine the speaker performance, but that is the bottom end spec for the maggies. Nearly every recording in my collection benefits from the sub providing the music below 35 hz., where the maggies roll off. I use the high level input to the REL from the amp and do not have any degradation of the midrange.

I also suggest getting stands from Mye Sound for your MG3.6R speakers.
I bought my 3.6's new and had the roller coaster ride. The brightness puzzles me because you don't have reflectve surfaces. Pay attentention to the toe-in they mention in the manual for this will affect the phase relationship between the bass and the tweeter.

The amp does indeed need to be a brute. The Maggie spec's are misleading on sensitivity. They use a voltage figure instead of the 1 watt/1 meter spec'. That shows a speaker that is actually less sensitive than what is first believed. So, even though it may be a fine integrated, the power supply probably can't keep up, especially in the cavernous room you are listening in. Try using the Spectron Musician II. It is a digital amp that puts out 650 wpc into 4 ohms with 40 amps of current. I have had this thing cranked in my 13x26 room to the point where the fuses on the speakers quit the next day just on power up. But, we had a rock concert goin' on with ZZ Top right in front of our eyes. This is a fantastic amp. I can say that as I have owned 28 amps in the past 13 years and I started this whole hobby off with listening to Maggies.

The rest of my system is a Sony SCD-1, Kern modified SACD player feeding an Eastern Electric MiniMax tube pre. Harmonic Tech Pro Silway MK111 interconnects are used with Spectron's sense cables used on the output of the amp to the speakers. I have also chucked the metal factory-supplied jumpers. I replaced them using Audio Magic silver jumpers.

Finally, get some of the Mye Stands to firm those panels up. You have that big room and the panels are just rocking back and forth with the bass they are being fed. The stands will give you great bass and will provide so much more information retrieval that the factory stands will be useless.

Good luck and don't give up the ship...yet.
I second the suggestion of moving the panels to about four feet from the back wall; start there and experiment. Also, IMO Maggies LOVE tubes. 200 watts of quality tube power should do it. I use Manley Reference 200/100 mono's, and in my very large listening room I get an incredibly large and dimensional soundstage, without too much brightness.

Good luck.
El: A really big room is harder to pressurize and obtain high levels of low frequency output. If you doubt this, compare the figures that are used for "room gain" in a house and "cabin gain" when used in a car. The smaller area of a car is easier to pressurize and actually increases apparent output as frequency drops.

On top of this, you have to take the speakers that are being used into account. While dipolar bass can sound very good, it also brings with it some very different attributes in terms of how low frequencies "load up" into the room. This is especially true when half of the speaker radiation is out of phase and is trying to cancel out the other half. In this respect, i highly agree with the others that the location of the speakers in terms of how far off the front wall they are and where the seated listening position is could be suspect.

As a side note, i think that a similar yet different speaker might have been a better approach for this size room. The big Carver's would have been a great choice here as they have all the speed of a ribbon with GREAT bass weight and extension. Since this room is SO large, it would have helped to balance out the bottom end on these speakers since they can tend to sound a little bottom heavy in a smaller room. Sean
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PS... I'm simply "thinking out loud" here, so i hope that Rooze does not take this personally. Obviously, i'd like to see everyone happy with what they have but at the same time, i'm trying to be as honest as possible. You folks can tell me to shut up at any time and i'll understand : )