Tom, You have nice stuff and a nice set up. The one thing you don't mention is the toe in of your speakers. Many speakers are hot if you listen to them on axis. A lot of manufacturers recommend that they be pointed straight ahead for proper imaging etc for just that reason. If you have a wall just 2 feet away you could easily get excessive reflections. I have speakers that should be, optimally pointed straight ahead. I had an idea one day, tried it and it worked just great in a room of similar size and speaker placement as yours. I measured the angle from the line perpendicular to the speaker when it was pointed straight ahead to the head at the listening chair (it was about 20 degrees) and then to duplicate the exact same sound waves from the speaker and eliminate the reflections I toed the speakers in 20 degrees past the listening position. It looks unusual but it really worked! By the way it also helped with ceiling reflections (I have 9'ers). And as side benefit - If you sit to either side of the listening position in a chair in front of the speaker you get a pretty good center image, due mainly to the distance that the signal has to travel is off set by the roll off of the signal as it goes further off axis in the speaker directly ahead. This does not occur with other set ups where the center image wants to remain right in front of you. Sort of neat in a way. Anyway, its fun to play with. Good luck.
room treatments? is it the room that's bright?
Hi
Tom from New Orleans, here goes with my novel,
please excuse the length
I've been refining my system with ic and speaker cable upgrades - Cardas,Harm Tech, Acoustic Zen, preamp upgrades - Arc LS 5, tube upgrades - pricey nos Telefunken and Siemans,Dac and transport upgrades - EVS MIllenium II and TEAC VRDS 10 transport and power upgrades - equitech balanced power on my front end.
All have made nice improvements. I've been moving steadily toward good imaging, resolution and natural tonal balance.
I've always tried to move towards more musicality - tonal balance, naturalness, air and warmth.
Unfortunately it may be my room that's my guilty culprit for a slightly bright mid and high end, and I don't have a lot of experience in taming that.
I have a 27 by almost 15 by 8 room, hallways on both ends and my speakers are along the long wall, leather couch opposing in a couple foot notched out area (small closets from other rooms notched in on the ends of the hallways).
The speakers are almost 2 feet away from the walls, set in 9' equilateral triangle with the listening area - imaging is very nice (even with a Proton tv on my cwd lowboy equipment cabinet, back a little from the front of the speakers). Floor is carpet (older), walls drywall with drymount music posters on them, ceiling spackled - no special room treatments
The speakers are Von Schweikert Vortex screens - basically a VR4. they are large floor standing. Their tonal balance is good, acoustic instruments sound nice - I play acoustic guitar. I thought maybe the titanium teeters may be the culprits and I've been considering upgrading to VR4se at $6000 or another neutral speaker, but I'm now think my room may be the biggest culprit and would like to take care of that first. At lower volumes things sound nice tonally, but get a little shrill at higher 'more resolving' volumes. I also have a pair of B&W Matrix 2's to compare, which are nice, but they have more cabinet resonance and don't disappear or image as well in the room.
Imaging is great in the room, I went to great detail in the setup, the speakers disappear nicely (a trait I like) and the image is well beyond and behind the speakers (these speakers are designed for true phase coherence.
But things appear to be a little brighter at mid and high freqencies at mid to higher volumes than I'd like. If I am listening in the room behind this room the tonal balance sounds absolutely wonderful even on sax, horns etc(of course imaging suffers).
Is it the room? Is it too reflective that is causing the slight brightness in the mids and highs?
I did an extensive search here on room treatments and I'd like to hear a few more suggestions. I'm single so I don't have the WAF factor, but I don't want anything too hideous looking in the room.
I'm probably less inclined to do a diy project like at David Risch's site, but would be interested in finding some asthetically pleasing but not too expensive room treatments to tame the high and mid freq. Perhaps absorbtion panels on ceiling first arrivals and back wall arrivals, maybe diffusion behind. The low frequencies seem rather nice, so maybe I don't need to go the corner trap route first, plus I have an old wood victrola in corner. I'd prefer something that would be removeable later for resale purposes.
Any suggestions on manufacturers, particularly those not too pricey, who make high quality products that can slightly tone things down? Anybody work with your dimensions or recommend full room treatments based on them? Any elegent or easy DIY projects?
It's distrubing to think that I've ignored my room all this time, when it's more than likely the biggest factor. Doh!
thanks a lot
Tom
thanks
Tom
Can anyone suggest
Tom from New Orleans, here goes with my novel,
please excuse the length
I've been refining my system with ic and speaker cable upgrades - Cardas,Harm Tech, Acoustic Zen, preamp upgrades - Arc LS 5, tube upgrades - pricey nos Telefunken and Siemans,Dac and transport upgrades - EVS MIllenium II and TEAC VRDS 10 transport and power upgrades - equitech balanced power on my front end.
All have made nice improvements. I've been moving steadily toward good imaging, resolution and natural tonal balance.
I've always tried to move towards more musicality - tonal balance, naturalness, air and warmth.
Unfortunately it may be my room that's my guilty culprit for a slightly bright mid and high end, and I don't have a lot of experience in taming that.
I have a 27 by almost 15 by 8 room, hallways on both ends and my speakers are along the long wall, leather couch opposing in a couple foot notched out area (small closets from other rooms notched in on the ends of the hallways).
The speakers are almost 2 feet away from the walls, set in 9' equilateral triangle with the listening area - imaging is very nice (even with a Proton tv on my cwd lowboy equipment cabinet, back a little from the front of the speakers). Floor is carpet (older), walls drywall with drymount music posters on them, ceiling spackled - no special room treatments
The speakers are Von Schweikert Vortex screens - basically a VR4. they are large floor standing. Their tonal balance is good, acoustic instruments sound nice - I play acoustic guitar. I thought maybe the titanium teeters may be the culprits and I've been considering upgrading to VR4se at $6000 or another neutral speaker, but I'm now think my room may be the biggest culprit and would like to take care of that first. At lower volumes things sound nice tonally, but get a little shrill at higher 'more resolving' volumes. I also have a pair of B&W Matrix 2's to compare, which are nice, but they have more cabinet resonance and don't disappear or image as well in the room.
Imaging is great in the room, I went to great detail in the setup, the speakers disappear nicely (a trait I like) and the image is well beyond and behind the speakers (these speakers are designed for true phase coherence.
But things appear to be a little brighter at mid and high freqencies at mid to higher volumes than I'd like. If I am listening in the room behind this room the tonal balance sounds absolutely wonderful even on sax, horns etc(of course imaging suffers).
Is it the room? Is it too reflective that is causing the slight brightness in the mids and highs?
I did an extensive search here on room treatments and I'd like to hear a few more suggestions. I'm single so I don't have the WAF factor, but I don't want anything too hideous looking in the room.
I'm probably less inclined to do a diy project like at David Risch's site, but would be interested in finding some asthetically pleasing but not too expensive room treatments to tame the high and mid freq. Perhaps absorbtion panels on ceiling first arrivals and back wall arrivals, maybe diffusion behind. The low frequencies seem rather nice, so maybe I don't need to go the corner trap route first, plus I have an old wood victrola in corner. I'd prefer something that would be removeable later for resale purposes.
Any suggestions on manufacturers, particularly those not too pricey, who make high quality products that can slightly tone things down? Anybody work with your dimensions or recommend full room treatments based on them? Any elegent or easy DIY projects?
It's distrubing to think that I've ignored my room all this time, when it's more than likely the biggest factor. Doh!
thanks a lot
Tom
thanks
Tom
Can anyone suggest
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- 21 posts total
thanks for the responses so far I'll check into the side wall reflections (usually they are less in a long wall setup), and the ceiling direct arrival. The back wall probably needs dampening - maybe I can test it out with simple tapestery or rug and then go further The spl meter and test cd sounds like a good step. The imaging is quite good, but perhaps it can be better. Speakers are slightly toed in 5-10 degrees, did a lot of placement to get my imaging but haven't tried over towing them. Has anyone tried RPG, ASC, Acoustic First or other diffusor and absorbtion materials? Are there companies you'd recommend who will sell products based on a full room analysis approach? thanks Tom |
Disclaimer: I am a dealer for Eighth Nerve. Tom, Hello...Do you here any echo when you clap your hands (even the slightest amount can cause significant increases in "brightness")? Also, do you here this on all recordings? Very good (and sanely priced) room treatment products can be purchased from Eighth Nerve. The majority of room treatment products work well, but the prices are usually quite ridiculous. We searched for a LONG time before finding this company and have been VERY impressed with their products and service. Anyway, you may not need any room treatment at all, just wanted to bring this company up as a possibility. I don't believe that your system is the culprit. Do the B&W speakers sound brighter to you than the Von Schweikert's? Regards...Mike - Father & Son Audio |
Sorry to enter the discussion so late, but I was travelling last week. I've said this before in other discussions, but you have 2 approaches. One is a trial and error, which is not as bad as it might sound for the basics, the other is to hire a group like ours to do the plans. In the trial and error method I would look at the first reflection points, both ceiling and walls. If possible try diffusion on the ceiling and absorption on the walls. The second area is to work on speaker placement (including toe in). If you go to our site there is a tutorial on speaker placement in the "listening room" section. http://www.rivesaudio.com/listroom.html There are many tips in the listening room section and hopefully it will help considerably if you like the experimentation aspect (it is actually fun if you have the patience for it). Two tools that are useful for helping you determine the severity of your problem and possible solutions. One is the Radio Shack SPL meter (already mentioned), but either use our Test CD which corrects for the non-linearities of the meter or download the correction values which are found on the instructions. (This can be downloaded from our site as well). The other tool is the CARA 2.1 software. It is an room acoustics simulator and can help determine what some possible solutions for your problem might be (we sell this as well, so I may be a bit biased here, but I do think it is a very good value). You can basically model your room, make changes, and see what the theoretical results of your changes are. It does take some time to use and is not the most intuitive program--but is very very flexible and the best I've seen of it's kind so far. One caution on hiring groups that sell pre fabricated material, they are in the business of selling material. We only sell designs and have no interest in filling up your room with unnecessary items. In fact, we try to use existing furnishings and standard products where ever possible to keep costs down for our clients. In many cases our design costs are offset by the savings in acoustical treatment. |
- 21 posts total